Day 060 - 02 Dec 94 - Page 03

     1        what is the evidence is touched on, and they say:  "Oh,
     2        I have read something about that", or "I know of an article
     3        about that"; that is happening first of all generally.  It
     4        is also happening specifically when you have someone like
     5        Mr. Hopkins sitting behind you; that is, someone whom you
     6        have approached for a statement because he has an interest
     7        in a particular area which the case touches on.  So, you
     8        are getting extra documents generally and you are getting
     9        extra documents specifically from people you want to call.
    11        In the situation we are in, with you representing
    12        yourselves, and with numbers of people who are interested
    13        in the case and your side of the case, I accept that just
    14        is a fact of life, that is the way things are bound to
    15        happen.  I do not see why people should not show an
    16        interest and provide you with material.  So, on that basis,
    17        I am sympathetic to the situation, but, granted that, we
    18        have to get some method into it; I will not say method into
    19        the madness because it is not madness; it is not the way
    20        things ordinarily happen.
    22   MR. MORRIS:  It may be described as madness.
    24   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  We have to get some method into it, which is
    25        why I am taking a stand here. I would like you to think
    26        about it, because I do not know what your sources of
    27        information and documentation are, and I do not want to
    28        ask.  What I think you and Ms. Steel have to do at some
    29        time, when you have a quiet moment, think:  How can we
    30        organise this a bit better so that things arising in this
    31        impromptu way is kept to a minimum?
    33        So, for the time being what I would like to do is, you are
    34        going to be cross-examining Mr. Oakley comfortably past the
    35        mid-day adjournment?
    37   MR. MORRIS:  Yes.
    39   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I think you ought to come back to this.  You
    40        can come back to the documents you served yesterday at any
    41        time in the light of what Mr. Rampton has said.  I think
    42        you ought to come back to this after the mid-day
    43        adjournment.  If I am told then that Mr. Oakley needs to do
    44        more than just read this, he needs to make enquiries, then
    45        what I would like him to -- I am not suggesting he should
    46        say that -- but if you can possibly deal with it this
    47        afternoon, well and good.  That is what I would like him to
    48        do.  If there is some difficulty, and he needs to make some
    49        further enquiry before he has answered, then he can tell me
    50        what that is and I will consider it then. 
    52   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, I was going to add this before Mr. Morris 
    53        interrupted me.  Mr. Morris still does not seem to
    54        understand that what is contained in a newspaper article is
    55        not evidence.
    57   MR. MORRIS:  No, but it is cross-examination material.
    59   MR. RAMPTON:  No, my Lord.  May I please finish?
    60        Cross-examination material takes two forms.  It takes the

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