Day 107 - 24 Mar 95 - Page 03

     1        I would rather you said so, but I am just seeing if you can
     2        offer a view.
     3        A.  Well, my Lord, the reason I do not know is because the
     4        information is not available.  There is simply no
     5        structured, organised sampling of the national herd and,
     6        therefore, there are no reliable data on which any estimate
     7        could be made.
     9   Q.   The next matter is this:  You said there had been surveys
    10        in relation to pigs and you said there were 15 to 25 per
    11        cent with salmonella, and then a few questions and answers
    12        later on you said that that figure was in terms of
    13        sausages?
    14        A.  That was sausage meat, my Lord, not pigs themselves,
    15        sausage meat.
    17   Q.   No.  Do you have any figures of any reliability at all as
    18        to carcasses or deboned pig meat?
    19        A.  No, my Lord.  Again, the qualification, and this is my
    20        area of professional study and it is a cause of some
    21        considerable complaint by myself and my colleagues, is that
    22        there are no reliable data.  The surveillance system
    23        actually spends a lot of money doing a lot of erratic
    24        sampling but has never been able to organise itself
    25        properly to do a structured national survey and provide
    26        data on which we can -----
    28   Q.   But there has been some kind of survey in relation to
    29        sausages, has there?
    30        A.  What you got from me was data from a British Medical
    31        Journal reported survey, and we do have these occasional,
    32        erratic surveys as fancy takes a particular group, and they
    33        go out and buy X number of bits of food and sample them.
    34        Of course, in fact, the sampling errors in that again
    35        dictates caution in that one glibly says:  "25 per cent",
    36        but the variation on sampling error could give you a 10
    37        per cent plus or minus.
    39   Q.   The final thing I want to ask you about which is a loose
    40        end in my mind from yesterday, are the pathogens which we
    41        have mentioned which, essentially, for all practical
    42        purposes originate in the gut of the animal, and I would
    43        also like you to tell me if you know which of the relevant
    44        ones may also be in the gut of human beings, because
    45        I assume if a pathogen may be in the gut of human beings,
    46        if the human being who is involved somewhere in the food
    47        chain, to put it rather euphemistically, does not observe
    48        proper standards of personal hygiene, then the pathogen may
    49        get transferred from them to the meat?
    50        A.  Yes. 
    52   Q.   I want to make sure, because this is an area new to me so I 
    53        do not want to make some fundamental error on something as
    54        basic as that, salmonella is in the gut of the animal?
    55        A.  Indeed.
    57   Q.   What about humans?
    58        A.  Commonly in humans.  I have seen a variety of
    59        surveys  -----

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