Day 208 - 24 Jan 96 - Page 03
1 and see what I am told by either side about what the
2 position is. The memorandum clearly says that the law with
3 regard to breaks still bites. That was one of the things
4 which was not changed. I will wait to be educated in due
5 course as to what the law was, in so far as any party in
6 the action thinks it is important for me to know.
7
8 MR. MORRIS: If the Plaintiffs know, they should say. I think
9 Mr. Rampton has an obligation to the court to ------
10
11 MR. JUSTICE BELL: No, I am sorry. The law is the law. The
12 mere fact that one party knows more about it than another
13 is neither here nor there. Mr. Rampton cannot just stand
14 up and say: "The law is this"; he has got to actually refer
15 me to the provisions. If both parties are agreed that the
16 law is this, then there may be no need for the judge to go
17 back to the particular sources; he can accept that as
18 agreed. But, generally speaking, it is not for an advocate
19 or a witness (save in certain circumstances which do not
20 apply here, unless American law crops up) to say what the
21 law is. The judge is just referred to the Act of
22 Parliament, the regulations and whatever ---
23
24 MR. MORRIS: I mean -----
25
26 MR. JUSTICE BELL: -- to see what it is.
27
28 MR. MORRIS: Yes. I mean, the situation, as we understand it,
29 is that we have taken at face value what McDonald's
30 understanding of the legislation is, as their party we are
31 challenging, and it is conceivable they did not know what
32 the law was and they were just making up something. But we
33 are working on that basis. If the Plaintiffs wish to
34 challenge it, I think the obligation should be on them to
35 say they are going to challenge that. If there is consent
36 between the parties, as has been suggested, that is fine;
37 and we are working on the basis that, until challenged,
38 that is what the law is, what McDonald's themselves said to
39 their own Supervisors doing their audits.
40
41 Also, there is the obligation, because we are defendants in
42 person, we do not have access to legal literature such as
43 the Plaintiffs have easily; and, really, it is a continuing
44 issue that is going to come up with the witnesses today and
45 tomorrow, and next week as well.
46
47 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Quite frankly, it is up to you to know what
48 the law is in relation to these things. You said from time
49 to time to witnesses in cross-examining them that that was
50 against the law. You have either declared it or asked the
51 witness to agree that it is against the law. In due
52 course, I will have to be taken, where illegality is
53 alleged, to chapter and verse. It may turn out, when I am
54 taken to chapter and verse, if Mr. Rampton is doing it, you
55 will stand up and say, "We accept that", or, if you are
56 doing it, Mr. Rampton will stand up and say, "We accept
57 that", and we may then be able to take a short cut.
58
59 MR. MORRIS: Maybe we will leave that to the end of the case.
60
