: : DDN: But why am I still going to hell if Jesus died for my sins? What did he go to all that trouble for if it still left me with a one way ticket to hell?:
: You do not have a one way ticket to hell. Jesus has provided us a way to not go to hell. What matters is if you take advantage of the situation.
DDN: In other words, there is SOMETHING I CAN DO to "save myself", as in "take advantage of the situation", correct?
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: : DDN: So, prior to the arrival of Jesus, everybody went to this "hell" place when they died?
: This is not the case. Before Jesus came here, people were saved by being good and obeying God's laws. Anyone (Moses for instance) who obeyed the commandments and believed in God and worshipped was saved. This was in the Old Testament times, back in those days, the world was much more wicked than it is now. So God sent his son to show his love for us and anyone who believes in Him shall be saved. Of course the Jews who were alive before Jesus are in heaven.
DDN: Then the Jews that were alive AFTER Jesus are in Hell, correct?
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: :DDN: Question: If God knew we needed Jesus to avoid eternal damnation and God loves us then why did he let everybody that lived prior to the arrival of Jesus go to hell with no possible escape route?
: It was only after the arrival of Jesus that faith in Him is needed
DDN: So being "good" was what got you into heaven in the last day of the year 1 B.C. and "Jesus" is was what got you into heaven the next day when Jesus was born? What about the people that didn't have CNN and didn't hear about the birth of Jesus? Did they burn in hell for all eternity? And why did God change the program? Had he been making some sort of mistake by letting people into heaven prior to Jesus? Why was "being good" good enough for him then, but goo enough for him now? (Please address each question rather than answering just one of them)
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: DDN: Did God just suddenly start loving humanity just prior to 2000 B.C.? Did something happen just prior to 2000 B.C. that suddenly made us loveable? If so, what was it? Why were we not lovable prior to 2000 B.C.?
: : Also, you say, as many Christians do, that there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, but below you have told me what I MUST DO to be saved - acknowledge Jesus, confess, etc. and then I'll be saved, correct? How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction.
Shaun: It's no contradiction. You cannot save yourself. You must believe in Jesus and he will save you.
DNN: Huh? How is this not a contradiction? HeLLLOOooo. Earth to Shaun.....You said there is "NOTHING" I can do to save myself and yet you give specific instructions for what I MUST do to save myself - and yet again you state above that I "must believe in Jesus" and that this will cause me to be saved. Doesn't "believing" constitute "doing something". Isn't the word "believe" a VERB?! Work with me here. And if I (that's "I" as in "me, myself, and I") am the one doing the believing then aren't I "doing something" to save myself? Come on man, give us a break.
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: : DDN: Two points to make here:
: : 1) Already I am at a loss for what to do. I don't understand this instruction and therefore cannot carry it out. What do you mean by "Lord"? Do you mean "God"? What do you mean by God? And who is Jesus? Is he here? Can I meet him? How am I to come to a belief that Jesus is God if I don't know Jesus or this "God" guy either. How am I to hold the opinion that ANY two things are one in the same if I am not aquainted with either of them?
: You can believe Jesus is God because first of all every prophecy in the old testament about the Messiah came true with the birth of Jesus. The old testament was written years before Jesus was born, and these prophets had visions from God about the arrival of the Savior. You can read it for yourself. Read Isiah and the rest of them predict Jesus coming to earth in detail, and flip to the new testament Gospels written after Jesus birth. Every prediction came true. Secondly, Jesus did things no person has ever done. He healed the blind and crippled
: with a touch of his hand. He walked on water. He delivered sermons like no one has ever heard before. Hundreds of people witnessed this. Three days after his execution, after spending three days in the grave, 500 people witnessed his ressurection and ascention to heaven. It is recorded in history. These writings were collected to form the new testament of the bible. There is even written evidence other than the bible about his life
DDN: I don't mean to be disrespectful but.....SO WHAT? I have LOTS of books that say LOTS of things. They range from historical texts to sci-fi fantasy fiction. Even the historical texts are are merely someone's (some human's) perspective on past events, and the interpretations of of the historian's accounts are as varied as the number of people that read them.
By the way, I HAVE read the Bible and finding references to Jesus in the Old Testament is like looking for needles in a haystack, so stop missleading people by giving them the false impression that the Old Testament is busting at the seems with predictions of Jesus, ok?
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: : :Shaun: .....Confess to Jesus that you are a sinner and and aknowledge him as the savior of the world, and ask him to save you and cleanse you from sin. You have to mean it with all of your heart though.....
: : DDN: Are you saying I have a choice as to whether or not I "mean it with all of my heart" when I say this? I don't know how YOUR heart works, but I don't find that I have any say at all over what is in my heart. The sincerity is either there or it isn't - and, in my case, it simply isn't. Are you suggesting that there is something I can do to make my heart sincere in this regard so that my confession will have the desired effect? (And, if so, wouldn't this be yet another instruction on what one "can do to save themself")
Shaun: Just like it says in the Bible: believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you will be saved.
DDN: Yes, Shaun. I can read just fine. I can read this a million times but it does not address my questions above. Can you answer my questions please? So far you are simply having a conversation with yourself. It is at such a point that most people would bail out of such a thread, but being the generous and rather curious guy that I am I'll give you one more chance to respond to MY questions instead of the one's that you are making up in your own head.
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: : DDN: But you said we were ALL sinners. Are you now saying that born again christians are NOT sinners?
: Born again Christians are forgiven-thier sins are washed away. Why?-because they asked for forgiveness and they believe in Jesus
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: : DDN: But you are still a sinner living in this world, thus you are still a "wordly sinner" (albeit a FORGIVEN one), correct? Also, if your sins are now automatically forgiven then no amount of wrong action or sin can keep you out of heaven at this point, correct?
Shaun: When you become born again your past sins are forgiven, so if you sin again you have to ask for forgiveness again. However, once you are born again your desire is to do God's will, so if you really meant it when you aked for forgiveness you won't be living a sinful lifestyle anymore, although it is totally impossible to become perfect and never again to sin.
DDN: This is getting pretty complicated. What constitutes a "sinful lifestyle"? If I sin 3 times a day am I living a sinful lifestyle? How much can I sin without being labeled by God as someone who lives a sinful lifestyle? And where is all of this in the Bible. I don't recall such a distinction being made between sinning and "living a sinful life style".
Also, you are still not addressing my point. You stated previously that once you are born again you are no longer a "wordly sinner". Yet you have just stated above that it is impossible to NOT sin. This means that you yourself must sin occasionally and are therefore a sinner, and, since you are in this "world", you are a "worldy sinner" and therefore cannot have been born again! So which is it? Are you born again or are you a sinner?
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: :Also, I haven't "rejected" anybody. You've asked me to somehow magically force myself to believe a set of statements about two entities (Jesus and Lord) that I have never even had lunch with. I've not rejected them anymore than I have rejected a bowl of soup when I simply ask the waiter what its ingredients are or complain that I have no spoon.
: You can either accept Jesus or reject him. You keep telling me since you don't know him, you don't want to believe in him.
DDN: No. It doesn't have anything to do with "wanting" or not "wanting" to believe. I simply do not understand what it is I am being ASKED to believe. Who is it am I to know? You keep thumping the Bible in front of me, but the last time I checked, the Bible was a BOOK (a thing that you read), not a person. Acceptance or rejection can only be based on some understanding of the object under consideration. If I asked you "do you believe in my one-eyed-purple-people-eater?" would you accept it or reject it? Neither.....because you don't have any idea of what the hell it is I'm talking about. So clearly there are more choices than acceptance or rejection - I simply chose to ask some very reasonable questions first which you apparently are unwilling to respond to.
Shaun: Of course you don't know him. Nobody knows Jesus untill they have became born again christians.
DDN: Let me get this straight:
1) In order to be born again I have to accept Jesus and in order to accept Jesus I have to know him. It follows then that, in order to be born again, I have to know Jesus.
2) In order to know Jesus I must be born again.
Clearly this is an impossible assignment since both goals (being born again and knowing Jesus) are mutually dependent upon one another i.e. You can't do either without having accomplished the other first. I see no recourse for you here accept to admit that you simply do not understand what it is you are talking about - or you could just ignore this discrepency as you are so inclined.
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Shaun: ....Jesus knows you- he created you then died for you, only to rise again. Pray. And read the Bible, and confess your sins and believe He is the Lord. The fact that people do not know him is what keeps them out of heaven.
DDN: Then there's alot of people in China that are going to hell because they don't have cable or satellite TV? What about prior to the advent of telecommunications, TV, bookstores, etc. Have millions of people gone to hell simply because they weren't born in countries where christianity flourished. What kind of a loving God would send millions of people to hell just because of where they were born?
Also, you have added yet another instruction to the ever expanding list of things I can do to be "saved" - reading the bible. I think that makes about 5 things I CAN do or MUST do be saved. So do you still stand by your conviction that there is not even ONE thing I can do to be saved?
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Shaun: Pick up a Bible and pray something like "Lord, as I read your word please open my eyes to the truth and my heart to your love. Please help me to understand what you want to tell me through your word" Open up to the new Testament, to the first four chapters of the gospels (my favorite is John)These four books, written by four different people during Jesus life, tell the story from his birth to crucifixion. Most of it is quotes right from Jesus'mouth.
DDN: I HAVE done this. The "truth" that was revealed to ME was that these four can't possibly be all direct quotes from the mouth of Jesus since many of the accounts are of the same events and all four books often have Jesus saying something different at each event. The other "truth" that was revealed to me was that the new testament, like its predecessor, is jammed with contradictions and general errancy. That's what God revealed to me Shaun - he basically said that the whole Bible is a bunch of horse hockey. Will you argue with God now?
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: : DDN: Eh? What difference does it make how you act and live? You're still going to heaven anyway, aren't you? Isn't your born again status enough to secure your place in heaven?
Shaun: Once you become born again, you won't be drinking and drugging, stealing or cursing..........
DDN: Well what will you be doing then? Killing, raping, and pillaging? You said it was impossible to NOT sin even after being born again. So what sins can one be expected to commit after being born again?
Shaun: .....You will always be treating people with respect and love. You'll read the bible daily ect ect ect... If your lifestyle does not change after you became born again, then you probably didn't want to become a Christian in the first place....
DDN: So now its not enough to just be born again - you must also want to become a Christian, correct? Previously you stated that being born again was adequate for getting you into heaven. But now you have added another criteria - wanting to become Christian. Are you sure there isn't a third or fourth requirement before we continue this conversation?
Shaun: ......., and the one thing that God gets angry more than anything is a hypocrite. Your Christian status is not a license to sin and do whatever you want. Although we do mess up at times and sin, (and ask for forgiveness) at least we are not going around sinning knowing that we are heaven bound so we can do whatever we want.
DDN: MAybe not, but the point is, you could, if you wanted to, go around sinning like crazy then when you were ready to die ask God for forgiveness and you'd be rushed right off to heaven, correct? I'm not saying god wouldn't be angry - who gives a fuck as long as he ultimately decides to let you through the pearly gates - and you have indicated that you will be allowed entry if you are
1) born again and
2) have asked for all sins committed after being born again to be forgiven.
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: DDN: are you now saying that there are certain things you must do throughout your entire life in order to be allowed through the pearly gates?
Shaun: Not things, thing. You must obey God.
DDN: Whoomp, there it is. A third criteria for getting into heaven: "Obey God". Want to try for a fourth, a fifth?
Shaun, you're killin' me. Is there NOTHING I can do to save myself or is there SOMETHING I can do to save myself? You have now very clearly indicated that both are true. The bible lists quite a number of things that god wants us to do, dare I say thousands. So you are now saying that there are thousands of things I must do in order to get into heaven when previously you said there was NOTHING I could do to get into heaven. Please reconcile this for good of us all.
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: : :Shaun: ......It says Jesus is coming back.....
: : DDN: Ok. So that means he is not HERE right now, correct? If he is not here then how am I supposed to make this confession to him? Cellphone? Email? How am I to receive the "gift" from him? UPS? Federal Express?
: God is here. Not in the person form (Jesus) Jesus, the person, is coming back
DDN: Yes, that's very nice. But what about MY QUESTION? Whether God is here or not in a non-person form is irrelevant if my confession must be made to God as a person. So my question stands: How am I to confess to Jesus if he is not here to confess TO?
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: : :Shaun: .....He said it himself. I hope you are ready.....
: : DDN: Ready for what?
: That he is going to return to take us to our eternal destination
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: : DDN: I'm sure we all appreciate your concern, but if its so important to save the rest of us wouldn't it be prudent to come up with some instructions for salvation that EVERYONE can understand?
: How hard is it to understand? Repent of your sin and believe that He is the Lord. The bible is translated into every language, what is there not to understand?
DDN: Very hard, apparently. So far you've given me 5 different sets of instructions for being born again and 3 different sets of instruction for getting into heaven - all 8 of them mandatory and yet any 1 of them you've have deemed as being sufficient. Only SOME of these instructions can I find a corresponding verse in the Bible with a magnifying glass and only a certain number of hours to spare before I fall asleep or have to return to work so I can put food on the table.
I have to be born again to know Jesus but I have to know Jesus before I can be born again. To "repent of my sins" I need to know what my sins ARE first and every reading of the Bible leaves me with a different definition of what sin is as does every conversation I've had with Christians. "Believe that He is Lord"? Who? Who's "He"? Lord? What's that? Believe? Is that different than KNOWING? How do I make myself BELIEVE something? It sounds like self hypnosis. Isn't hypnosis satanic? It's sounds pretty freakin' complicated to me.
And I very seriously doubt that the bible has been translated into every language given that there are hundreds of languages used on Earth and that's just ONE PLANET! The very best of our scientific knowledge of biology, chemistry, astrophysics, etc. conservatively estimates that there are several thousand other advanced civilizations in our galaxy alone (and there are millions perhaps billions of other galaxies). So how wrong does THAT make you?
Besides, you can't tell me that an African tribe that speaks in clicks and clacks has a meaningful and accurate translation of the entire holy bible or that such a thing is even feasible in such an obscure tongue.
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: : DDN: Maybe they are crystal clear to you, but many people find them to be profoundly UNCLEAR. Can a body of instruction truthfully be labeled as being "CLEAR" when there are as many people who are baffled by them as there are people who completely understand them right away? The Holy Bible is the most complex book I have ever read (and I've read hundreds of books). It ranks dead last on my reading list as far as clarity is concerned. Were you somehow endowed with magical powers of understanding at birth that allowed you to read the entire 1500 page holy bible and not be even a little bit confused?
Shaun: What do you not understand? I agree- the bible was written thousands of years ago, so some of the language is a little old fashioned and sometimes you have to re read it or ask someone for help. But it is not that hard.
DDN: Maybe you have a different definition of "crystal clear". My definition certainly does not entail having to read the same text over and over again and then still have to ask other people for help. But that's just silly old unsaved me, right?
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: : DDN: Does the Bible say that your name is "Shaun"? No. Does the Bible list the atomic weights of the elements? Does the bible say how old you are in milliseconds at any given point in time? The Bible doesn't say a whole lot of things Shaun that are obviously true. So your conviction [that if the bible doesn't say it, you don't believe it] seems rather rediculous.
Shaun: When it comes to spiritual things and the after life, I only believe the bible.
DDN: What about your own posts? Do you believe THEM? They are not the Bible are they? They certainly aren't all verbatim quotes. What about your own heart? Do you ever listen to it? If Jesus is in your heart then isn't it prudent to listen to it and believe what it tells you? It seems to me that you believe in many things of a spiritual nature that are not synonymous with the Bible.
