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Posted by: Red Deathy ( Socialist Party, UK ) on August 20, 1999 at 22:24:09:

In Reply to: Nationalism vs. patriotism posted by Nikhil Jaikumar on August 20, 1999 at 15:42:53:

: 1. Patriotism is different from racism because the nation has an existence in objective reality, while races do not.

Really? Is there any such thing as "America?" or "Aemerican"- I doubt it, the nearest you'll find is the activities of the political structure, or a group of people who claim to be American. Name one defining fact about Americans.

:the nation however, has a geographic and historical reality.

But not as any sort of unified entity. Eric Hobsbawm regards nationas as "incvented traditions"- teh history is supplied by choosing of the élite rulers- likwise Gramscian Hegemony theory confirms that fealing- that a nation is just a multiplicity of cultures drawn under the political dominance of one group.

People talk about 'one thousand years' of England, two hundred years ago they were disowning most of those thousand years as being the 'norman yoke' when foriegn invaders brought feudalism to destroyv true saxon democracy (false)- people talk about our monarchy- it wouldn't know an unbroken line of succession if it jumped up and bit it- England as such didn't really exist until about Henry VIII more or less nationalised Government- until then the border Marches and teh northern magnates more or less ruled themselves- France only came into being in the seventeenth century.

: 2. The difference between patriotism and national supremism is teh following. one states that "My country is superior to all others in a GENERAL sense, in all significant respects, and objectively." the other states that "My country is objectively better in certain specific respects, and is better FOR ME.'

But given that you are encouraged to define uour *self* through your country, that is an aburd tautology- I am the only me for me, is what you are saying, and the only way i can be me is to support this particular hegemonic group who form the consensus that is America.

:For example, I believe America is the one and only country for ME, because my own personal values etc. are most at home in the American envioronment. But I don't say that America is superior in a genmeral, objective sense to all other countries.

But your values come from America, if you were Turkish you would say the same of Turkey. All states are class ruled states, so by supporting the state, you are supporting class rule- America does not have self-determination, nor Does Vietnam, nor Britain nor Egypt- they have mastery for élites.

By defining your identity through America, you are inevitably doing so exclusively, because inherent in any notion of American is its negation, not American (un-American, and thus to engage in self-definition with reference to political entities is to inherently divide the working class, and to align yourself with teh American ruling class.

I ask again- would you live under a good king?


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