- Capitalism and Alternatives -

And the rest.

Posted by: Lark on December 01, 1999 at 10:38:31:

In Reply to: Qualifications posted by Nikhil Jaikumar on November 30, 1999 at 15:11:30:

: Well, defectors are often not the msot trustworthy source, nor can they speak for the masses of people who were loyal and did not defect. In general, those communist rregimes which were also democratic hadteh support of the people, regardless of whether or not they provided playstations etc. In general, I think that if a socialist society can address basic needs, it doesn't have to rpovdie consumer luxuries; the inspiration it gives to people will win tehir support and more than make up for any deficit in consumer luxuries. The socialist society may not produce plystatiosn, but so what? I'll bet that if they did a good job elsewhere no one would care.

I dont know, I've always thought of it in terms of immigration, I mean if a socialist country is really fine I'll want to move to it, however in order for that to be the case it's going to have to out strip capitalism in everyway, that includes entertainment.

: : That's rich coming from the guy who idealises Lenin and Trotsky, I suspose Plato's signature is on a lot of deathwarrants...

: Nor Marx neither. They were both philosophers after all, and are no more responsible for any killings then Christ was for the Inquisition.

Fair enough, the bolsheviks are a different matter.

: : If Plato interests me it's my business, I do have a personal idea of what utopia would suit me but I readily concede that not everyone would think it freedom so I consider an anarchist freedom to be the only satisfactory one.

: A socialist people's democracy would satisfy me.

It's like this I appreciate Edward Bellamy's 'Looking Backward' and Thomas More's 'Utopia' and even Plato's 'Republic' because I like the idea of the strong protecting the weak in an ultra organised state system, however, in the real world, having read many accounts I dont think anything other than participatory economics and some kind of libertarian socio-political administration will deliver freedom to each and everyone considering their different views of what Utopia is.

: :that process may intail provisional struggle and conflict

: probably a long, protracted worldwide struggle, which may be violent in some times and places, when all otehr methods have failed; in otehrs it will be through the parliamnetary system, and in still otehrs through strikes, protests, civil disobedience, etc.

Of course but if you venerate that struggle or enjoy that struggle you are accepting competition and war and are more of a facist than a co-operation advocating socialist.

: :but only a fool thinks 'Long Live the Class War, Long Live Struggle', or rather that is the thought of the facist, nazi and stalinist.

: Well, teh struggle will certainly last long....but actually 'class war' is not a fascist idea at all, it's anti-fascist.

I'm not suggesting that, only that there is something wrong with the people who would like to drag it out and make it last as long as possible and be as bloody as possible.

: well, I wouldn't condemn everything that came out of teh Soviet Union as bad. Post-Stalin, they did a lot of good things as well as bad. Helping to get rid of colonialism and apartheid, things like that...

I'm not so sure of their motivation myself it could have been a bit of machavellian my enamy's enamy is my friend stuff.

: Cuba is not a dictatorship. They have a large measure of participatory democracy, although it is not truly democratic neither- then again, neither is the United States. Lots of people like to bring up teh old canard about Cuba being anti-homosexual; did you know that homosexuality is recognized by Cuba's constitution as 'just as natural' as heterosexuality. Can you imagine that happening in the US?

Either way, I wouldnt want to live in Cuba because the authorities weild such might and are privileged when compared with the regular citizens.

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