- Capitalism and Alternatives -

Capitalism is the main problem

Posted by: Samuel Day Fassbinder ( Citizens for Mustard Greens, USA ) on December 07, 1999 at 15:53:17:

In Reply to: anyhting can be a target posted by Gee on December 07, 1999 at 14:52:08:

: :Russia, of course, is the paradise of "commerce without rules".

: As we discussed before - without 'rules' which are enforcable (or somehow honorably observed) then organisation of people invent and enforce their own (it doesnt matter if they are capitalists or socialists). Russia has had lots of practice in black markets and distrust of regulative bodies during its 'communist' era do it is set up for what it has.

SDF: But the people in Russia who are "enforcing rules" are also breaking these same rules!

What's a rule if not everyone follows it? A discussion-topic for lunch-hour! The point is that Russia celebrates openly the rule that the rest of the world's elite only celebrates at WTO meetings: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

: It seems the WTO sees itself as a 'rules base' for trade. That should be enough to concern anyone - just as much as some socialist organisation claiming to be the rules base for socialism.

SDF: The WTO's main duty is to place a CEILING (which gets lower and lower with each meeting) upon the amount of rule-making any organization can make to constrain a business, i.e. to make "commerce without rules" and Russian capitalism "the rule" everywhere.

: Neither capitalism nor socialism requires a vangaurd.

SDF: Nope, capitalism requires the BOURGEOISIE as a vanguard.

: : "Justice" is often a facade anyway, a promotional message of the bourgeois state. Al Gore claims to be strongly pro-environment, but his initiative at Kyoto and his coffee-table book are toothless photo-opportunities.

: I'm glad you see through his 'trees are great' facade.

SDF: Gore's REAL facade is his current job, and if he's elected President that will be his facade too. Capitalism IS on a collision course with global carrying capacity.

: : SDF: Sorry, under capitalism justice is a commodity, O.J. Simpson bought some and it paid off, the cops who thrashed Rodney King bought some and it paid off, and Gee's argument is just gainsaying.

: What surprises me is that you think the alternative produces better justice - it might. So might a better rules base in capitalism - but claiing that lots of people (democracy) will result in better justice is rather hopeful.

SDF: First abolish money, make property subject to democratic control, THEN democracy will work. Now it's at best an educational opportunity.

: : SDF: If populations are "vulnerable," as they are when they are in debt to the tune of their annual GNPs as they are now, then the movement of their goods is not "free". Understanding this is perhaps a starting-point for understand how the nations of the South have subsidized the nations of the North to the tune of six Marshall Plans, or that nations such as Senegal could be net food exporters while at the same time being the recipients of famine relief. Hint: the South is not "freely" giving its labor-power and resources to the North in such a self-destructive way as it is doing today. And "free trade" is only going to help those who are already "free," i.e. the nations of the North, "free trade" isn't going to make anyone any "freer" if their choice is between immediate labor in a sweatshop and immediate starvation, or if the only commodity they can sell doesn't fetch them a price they can live on.

: What I was suggesting is that a rule saying 'movement of goods an people must be unrestricted by law' is one that is either applied universally or has no meaning, rather than commenting on the horrendous loans 3rd world governments took on baord to build damns, palaces and 'modern' capitals for no reason other than 'nation' status.

SDF: The movement of the labor power of the working classes is, and will never be, free, until the working classes own the means of production democratically. The capitalist is free not to invest, the working person is not free to not work.

: : SDF: Big business is not the only thing that sucks about capitalism. It's just the most important thing.

: I'm glad you recognise it isnt the only thing - and you do find it to be the singular most important one. But remember that no democracy is somehow expempted from interest groups, injustice and power broking.

SDF: All of which are symptoms of CAPITALIST democracy.

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