- Capitalism and Alternatives -

NJ-PMS-Rx; 2 Midol, rest.

Posted by: Frenchy on December 12, 1999 at 17:32:10:

In Reply to: Far, far more guilty posted by Nikhil Jaikumar on December 11, 1999 at 21:21:31:

: Don't be ridiculous Frenchy. You can't seriously suggest that communist and socialist regimes have been responsible for more bloodshed than teh capitalists.

$$$$$$$Actually, I am serious....

: Capitalist regiems have entirely WIPED OUT ENTIRE peoples from the planet. The Tasmanians were murdered, every last amn of them, by the British settlers trying to make money off their mines and ranches in Australia.

$$$$$$$$$That's not a function of Capitalism, that's a function of man's nature. If Capitalism were to blame, those sorts of atrocities wouldn't have appeared throughout history.

: It wasn't the socialists who murdered a million Indonesians, sent hundreds of thousands to prison camps, and exterminated a third of teh east Timor population.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$May I suggest repressive dictators did that? The very same sort of dictators that have graced the pages of Socialist/Communist history.

: it wasn't the socialists who killed ten million people in the Congo 90 years ago, mutilating thousands more. That crime was carried out by the Belgians, in the name of private enterprise and Christian civilization.

$$$$$$$$$$$Could you supply some reference for 10,000,000? Did they keep census records in the Congo? Are these just made up figures to support your position? Like Zimbabwe being a wildly sucessful Socialist/Communist modern nation?

: And just to pre-empt Gee, may I add that the Congo Free State was a model of capitalsim and state non-interference; there was no state in the Congo Free State, only untrammeled private ownership. It was the privayte rubber companeis, not the socialists, who carried out genocide in the upper reaches of teh Amazon, wiping out 84% of the Brazilian Indians by murdering them and deliberately infecting them with disease.

$$$$$$$$$$$$Frankly this sounds like propaganda, something that you seem to specialize in. Could you give me some sources for these claims? I'd appreciate it.

: It was a right-wing capitalist government, backed by teh US, which razed Indian villages in Guatemala and wiped out a quarter of a million people.

$$$$$$$$$$$$Right wing? OK. Capitalist? Hmmmmm. What is your definition of "Capitalist"?

:It was the right wing in El Salvador which murdered peasants, priests and trade unionists, soem 70,000 of them, under the slogan 'Be a patriot, Kill a priest.'

$$$$$$$$$$$Yes, they don't play in other countries like they did w/ the WTO demonstrators in Seattle, you can plainly see that. In Seattle they had the luxury of the First Amendment as well as the rest of the Bill of Rights. Uhh, I happen to include that in a Capitalist system. Private ownership, courts for redress. If a government doesn't provide these things, is it a Capitalist system?

: It was a right wing government in Pakistan, closely allied with the US, that murdered three million Bengalis until the Indian Army invaded and liberated the people.

Oh, yes, you were saying...the Indian Army liberated the Bengals in Pakistan.....yes, go on.

: It was a right-wing government in South Africa that stretched its long and murderous arms from Sweden to Mozambique. (yes, I've heard rumors that Prime Minister Olof Palme of Sweden was assassinated on orders from the South African government).

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Yes, and you are not short in the rumors department.

: It was a right-wing British regime that amid myriad other atrocities, slaughetred 400 peaceful protesters on one afternoon in Amritsar.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Probably so. Americans killed a shitload of Indians too. So? What's your point? If you want revenge, say so.

:And what about the right wing Contra terrorists who killed 30,000 Nicaraguans?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Well, those kinds of things happen in a civil war. Probably wouldn't have happened at all if Castro hadn't stirred things up. Another good example of good intentions gone bad, eh?

: and what about the 3 million dead in Vietnam?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Yeah, and if we had won, Viet-Nam would probably be another sucess story like S. Korea and Japan. And we wouldn't have that pesky Pol Pot to talk about either. Nothing at all wrong with people who are willing to die to keep their country free of dictators wearing little red stars on their caps.

: Even the far-right scholar Eugene Genovese acknowledges these crimes.'

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Got no idea who he is.

: Plus, if you even include Mao and Stalin as socialists (which most socialists here don't;

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$I certainly can understand that.

: do you accept Hitler as a capitalist?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Of course not, but I'm sure you have a good reason for doing so. Maybe you'll explicate.

: most of their death toll was due to famine.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Yup, a state induced famine in each case....

: This is accepted by even teh most anti-communist 'scholars'.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$What's an anti-communist 'scholar'?

: If it's famine you want to talk about, let's look at the modern world, governed by a capitalist order, which denies food to soem 840 million people, causing gross millions to die of famien every year.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Uh, 'denies' food? What do you mean by that? I live in the modern world, and I've never once been denied food. No one that I know has ever been denied food either. Who are these 840 million people who are dying because food is being denied to them?

: If you attribute the famine deaths to Stalin and Mao, you must attribute the famine deaths caused by teh Western world, which beat Mao hands down.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Actually NJ, I 'must' not do anything, least of all agree with your silly premises and their ludicrous conclusions.

: A little reason and truth here, please.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Anytime your ready for some let me know....

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