- Capitalism and Alternatives -

I say democracy is mob rule. 51% wins. That's democracy.

Posted by: Frenchy on December 19, 1999 at 15:07:39:

In Reply to: Democracy is mob rule, says Frenchy posted by Nikhil Jaikumar on December 17, 1999 at 00:02:18:

: No progress, but lots of amusement so far....

: : Eastern Europe? Does that mean the former Soviet Satellites? I wonder why? Think Socialism had anything to do with it?

: Your lack of logic is amazing. If this was due to socialism, how come they only became hellholes after the "socialist" regimes were removed? Most East European countries were FAR better off under socialism than they are today. Their collapse only began with the end of socialism. Coincidence?
I like that; 'your lack of logic'...oh well, the hilarities continue.
Actually the collapse of these countries began when the Soviets took them over at the end of WWII.

: : : : The majority of so called non-alingned nations were to one degree or another in the Soviet camp.

: : : Right, and if you asked the Soviets they would say that the nonaligned nations were American stooges. SO why should people particularly believe YOU as opposed to THEM? The Philippines, supposedly non-aligned, was certainly an American stooge, as were most of teh worst tyrannies in Latin America.

: : It sounds like from your point of view there is no 'right' or 'wrong', that the governmental systems espoused by the Soviet Union and the United States were morally equivialant.

: In soem ways the Soviet system was morally superior, in others the US was sueprior, and in still others there was very little to choose between them. On balance, I would say the US had an overall edge, but we could have stood to learn much from the example of the Soviets and other socialist countries. Of course some systems are wrong and otehrs are right. It's my contention that morally, socialism, communsim and other systems predicated on freedom, equality, and essential humanity are infinitely superior, morally, to a capitalist syestem based on greed and fear; the workers' fear and the capitalists' greed.
: Incidentally, I think that the nonaligned nations were probably,in their foreign policy, better than either of teh two superpowers.
If the US had an overall edge, why is it then your "...contention that morally, socialism, communsim and other systems predicated on freedom, equality, and essential humanity are infinitely superior, morally, to a capitalist syestem based on greed and fear; the workers' fear and the capitalists' greed."
Ever hear the one about the excluded middle?

: : : 'Useful' for who? Look at the nonaligned movement in Africa, Frenchy. Most of those countreis, supposedly non-aligned, were in fact French client states. Do you argue that such nations as Gabon, Cameroon and the Ivory Caost WEREN'T clients of France? You can count the number of legitimate socialist states in Africa on the fingers of two hands.

: : France cannot be considered a capitalist country. I wonder how you figure that. It's a socialist country.

: Right.....Frenchy, what percent of the French economy is democratically owned, and what percent is privately owned? If it'smostly privately owned, how can it possibly be called socialist? Does France not have the profit motive, elite control, and a dominant private sector? These are the three hallmarks of capitalism.
I have to once again thank you for pointing something out that is very important, and that is the use of the term 'capitalist'. A more accurate term is 'free market'.
Until Mitterand was defeated in '93 France was controlled by the Socialists. Even though Chirac is President subsidies, high taxes, 'free' education, powerful labor unions still dominate.
When you ask what percentage is democratically owned, is this the same as state owned? I'm not sure. Could you tell me?

: : And the extension of that argument is if ten billion people agree that the earth is flat, then it is flat.

: Isn't it a bit arrogant to assume that Americans are right and the erst of the world, including India, are all wrong? You seem tohave it all wrapped up in the arrogance department.
Not if we agree that it'd be a good idea if the standard of living ramps up in India. As well as in other places. Via the free market.

: : Besides, how in the world would Indians know anything about Capitalism? What's their track record in that area? You tell an ignorant mass of people that because you've been to the big city you can bring Utopia, it's not surprising that they'll believe you.

: Let me turn it around; how would Americans know anything about communsim? When have we ever tried it out? By the way, Indians are not any more 'ignorant' in a general sense than Americans; they know what works for them. I find that a bit insulting, actually.
Then what your saying is that the only way that anyone can possibly know anything about anything is that they have to have first hand experience. So it's impossible for anyone to empathise with a person dying from a terminal disease. Likewise it's impossible for anyone except for a soldier who has experienced the horrors of war to form an opinion of war.
That's foolish.
A person doesn't have to experience something to know it's either good or bad. With hindsight even the most useful of Stalin's idiots can see that Communism was a lousy way to live.
Sorry about you feeling insulted.
Sometimes I feel the same way when some dipshit who is still wet behind his ears says stupid things about my country. That's just the way it is.
: :
: : The worlds biggest democracy, India, was being subsidized by the Soviets for years. I'm sure they had a good grasp of both sides of the argument. You could make the same claim about Maoism, at least during the time that Maoism seemed to be working, based on popular support.

: You evidently missed the point of my stressing that India was a DEMOCRACY< therefore people had an opportunity to FREELY CHOOSE socialism or communism, which they did repeaqtedly. In China, they didn't, so we can't tell what teh Chinese people felt about anything.
Per capita India $1,491. Per capita USA $27,336. The people of India freely chose a system that ensured a low standard of living? Something doesn't add up.

: : : : : : Long before there was ever a Soviet Union, the US has waged violence
: : : : : : around the world, from Cuba to the Philippines, from Nicaragua to
: : : : : : Mexican territory, from Hawaii to Haiti..........on behalf of entrenched elite interests and territorial expansion (or "Manifest Destiny" i.e. "God Told Us to Conquer the World" sort of thing)
: : : : $$$$$$$$$$$Yup, same as every other nation in the world and in history. Grow up.

: : : Yes, that would make sense, wouldn't it. Now Frenchy is going to bring up teh nonexistent historiacl accounts of Burkina Faso invading Nigeria, India annexing vast swaths of territory, Nicaragua mining Canadian harbors, the Pygmies dropping nukes on the Xhosa, the San placing sanctions on the Herero, and the Bhutanese taking over Japan. RIght.

: : I missed those, maybe you could explicate.

: They don't exist, man. SARCASM, ya know?
I know, I was playing dumb.

: : $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Strange, you keep bringing up conspiracy theories, black helicopters, Montana Militia. It's common knowledge that the majority of the ruling elite in Nicaugua is of Spanish ancestry, who compose a tiny fraction of the total population. To them it's about power, not about communism or capitalism. Whatever works that keeps them in power is what they'll do. Sort of Nicuagua's answer to India's caste system.

: Yes, as if india hasn't been bending over backwards with affirmative action etc. Were you aware that in some states 70% of government jobs and university states are reserved for underprivileged social groups. Kind of puts America's pitiful attempts at affirmatiev action in a bad light. We give blacks HALF teh number of college seats they deserve based on population and
: conservatives start whining.
The sooner we drive a dagger through the heart of affirmative discrimination, the better.
Nobody, my friend, 'deserves' a college seat.

: : Timothy C. Brown wrote a very interesting peice about the Nicaragua situation in "Causes of Continuing Conflict in Nicaragua; A View from the Radical Middle",published by the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace, in 1995. T.C. Brown has thirty-nine years international experience in elevyn countries on four continents as a diplomat, political and economic analyst, and trade specialist. His bio goes on, but you get the picture. Think that by reading this you might be proven to be less well informed then you'd like to believe?

: You quote Hoover Institution 'scholars', but when I quoted a Communsit historian about Nicaragua a while back, you apparently didn't even read teh article? If you don't reciprocate, why should I read the things you want me to read?
I concur.

: : : : :Look at the leadership of those countries Nickel Jack, how many mestizos do you see? What is the proportion of indigeneous people to those of Spanish origin?

: : : Well, let's see Frenchy. How many blacks, Catholics, Hispanics, Jews, or working class people have ever been president of this country? I'm sure it's a majority, right? After all, how many percentage points of teh population are rich white Protestant males?
: : $$$$$$$$$$$$$$Nice deflection. Can we get back to Nicaragua, your litmus test?
: : (Blacks, 0 although J. Jackson and A. Keys have run. Catholics, 1, JFK, with Al Landon also running in the late 20's. Hispanics, 0. Jews, 0, although I'd consider them a special case, given their small number and extraordinary influence in many fields.

: Not very impressive. Did you know that a member of the tiny Catholic minority has been president of senegal? India has had leaders who were Muslims, Sikhs, Dalits (formerly "Untouchables", women, etc.
I would expect that in the world's largest democracy that there would be leaders from Muslims, Sikhs, etc.
Let's talk about the free market in India. Are citizens allowed to own property? What are the tax rates like for business' vs. private citizens? How about inheretance laws, can property and wealth be handed down through one generation to another?

: :Jimmy Carter came from a working class. So did Ronald Reagan. How about Clinton? Ford? Nixon? LBJ? Eisenhower? There are more, but let's talk about your litmus test.)

: You must be kidding. Carter's dad was a wealthy farmer.LBJ's dad had connections up the wazoo.

My recollection was that the Carter family was an average farming family. I remember seeing a picture of Carter's Mom's house, it wasn't what you'd call palatial. Ditto LBJ's background. But even if some of what you say is correct, surely Reagans family counts as average. How about Truman?

: :
: : : Under Reagan, we subveretd the PNP in Jamaica, a predominantly BLACK nation, and brought to power a WHITE Conservative. How's that for 'social european dominnace'?
: : Yeah, that a good one. The people of Jamaica voted for a white socialist, a flaming socialist. Subversion? Is that like conspiracy theory? Was the subversion done using black helicopters?

: Edward Seaga wasn't a flaming socialist, he was a CONSERVATIVE,like I said. Where do you get your 'information' from?

: : This is silly Jack; just because some person gets killed doesn't mean that the system sanctions it. Especially in todays America. Minorities in general are protected by many laws not only in terms of physical violence, but also in terms of assured educational spots in colleges. Isn't it time to update that sort of '50's style Soviet propaganda?

: Yes, and what about the Guinean immigrant shot 41 timesin New York?

: : I have no idea what post your talking about. Find it and post it if you want.

: It was teh post about Freire, that SDF posted.

: : (by the way, do Indians recieve special admittance considerations in American colleges? I know that Philipinos do, but I'm not sure about Indians.)

: No. Indians are an overrepresented group in colleges, we have more seats than we deserve based on population.

: : : :I don't know where you went to school, but youv'e been indoctrinated beyound your wildest dreams.

: : : I went to high school under a conservative Episcopal reverend. i don't think you'd like him though. Because although he was persoanlly a conservative, he demanded that we 1) have a social conscience and 2) think for ourselves. SO in those two ways, eh ahd a great influence on me.

: : Just out of curiosity, what do you imagine he'd say to learn that you are, politically, a Communist?

: First of all, I'm a socialist; Communism is too morally pure and demanding for me. I still ahven't suppressed my selfish instincts enough to be able to be a full communist. But my political views have, if anything,moderated since high school.He knew I was a radical socialist; I think he respected my commitment, and I respected his religious devotion and lifestyle and his morally demandoing speeches. We actually talked about it in senior year; he wrote on my college application taht I was an idealistic socialist. Like I said, his influence did help keep me a socialist, because of what he said one day, taht none of us deserve the good fortune we have. A purer basis foir socialism is hard to imagine.So go ahead, threaten away, talk to him if you'dlike. Reverend Frank Washington Jarvis, West Roxbury, MA. Go ahead.
I've got no desire to do that. Just curious. I wonder why he said that none of you deserved the good fortune that you had? I can think of a couple of ways that could be interpreted; one good, and another not so good. How did you take it?

: :Did you become Communist through his influence, or through some other influence? I suspect it happened in college.

: I said above, I became a socialist in high school.It was well known. In our student election in 1996, me and some other juniors persuaded other kids to vote for teh Workers' World Party (Communits). They woulnd up out-polling that nut, Ross Perot.

That dork. If it hadn't been for him Bush would've been President in '92.

: : Yes, so do I. But a democracy isn't such a great idea. That's just another name for mob rule.

: WONDERFUL! AT last we have Frenchy's view of democracy!

Check it out. That's precisely what a democracy is- 51%. If 51% say slavery is good, well then, it's good. You think that's a good idea?

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