Your slagging me and insuations are really beyond a joke buddy....
: Stoller: The industrialized abundance that modern socialism must be based upon (would the working class overthrow the bourgeoisie for only lower standards of living?)...
Right when I argued for the same thing as regards playstations etc. you attacked me, now I'm wrong again, in both instances you just insuated my beliefs, you built on prejudice alone damnit!!!
: I have been talking about your expressed desires to return to PREindustrial standards of living, something I believe 'liberty in the workplace' would result in.
NOW I'VE NEVER, NEVER said that I want to return to pre-industrial anything, I'm awaiting your CONCRETE evidence as to how INDUSTRIAL SYNDICALISM will result in preindustrial anything aswell, or maybe you've read nothing about libertarian socialism or anarchism just read Trot shit and developed a trot shit prejudice to different theories.
: Russia, China, and Cuba, I believe, were failures in socialism largely because the level of industrial development was not high enough to sustain them. To point out these countries, Lark, is rather to support my contention about industrialization being necessary for socialism to thrive.
Damn it they where failures because they because of the violence and murder and leader centricism!!!
: Have you not heard a single word I've ever posted?
No, I've read your odd anti-hierarchy statements mades as though it vindicates all the other nonsense you've wrote about authoritarianism, murder and starvation etc.
: How could job rotation, equal pay, and a democratic application of production possibly lead to the 'same boss'?
Your preserving the the methods of production etc. and setting out with a blueprint that I dont think is much different from capitalism.
: Indeed, my proposals would make EVERYONE 'the boss.'
And everyone the damn slave!!!
: : Why the fuck not? Sounds like capitalist prejudice or one dimensional thinking to me, sure lets talk up 'absolute equality' and talk up 'absolishing the division of labout' and then just strengthen the division of authority of master and slave, damn it can't you see?!!! Your making a recipie for all the Russias, all the Gulaks, all the worker murdering regimes!!!
: What hysterical and misrepresentative slander.
No, that's your speciality a la 'on the sauce'!!
: If job rotation, equal pay, and democratic production are, as you say, formulas for 'Gulaks' and 'murdering regimes,' why then was job rotation, equal pay, and democratic production NOT a characteristic of ANY of the socialist failures you so crudely associate with me?
Your ideas you wish to enforce on people with starvation and violence hardly grounded in humanistic empathy there, perhaps you should take solace in a fanatical theological religion MR. because revolutions to improve peoples lives not set to some blueprint doesnt seem to be your area.
: Stoller: If a worker refuses to show up or to do such-and-such a task, production will be hampered, even stopped. That means commodities people expect on the communal store shelves will not be there.
: : So what are you condemning strikes now?
: Who was talking about strikes (a necessary class weapon in the struggle against capitalism)?
And in socialism, you think strikes etc. have no role anymore?
: I was talking about socialized production.
Oh, yeah, once you have your blue print realised, bloody and all as that may be, you dont care if people are finding it a living hell or not much different from capitalism you'll be able to call it socialism because that's what Trotsky etc. called it and hey they couldnt be wrong.
: Are you drunk?
Why dont you just get to....
: Here's where we REALLY get to what's bugging you.Doing an equal share of---some---any---of the unskilled work is repulsive to you.
Wise up, coercion, violence, the abscence of freewill etc. bug the hell out of me, implying that I'm a capitalist or pragmatist bugs me, you bug me with your theoretical nonsense.
: You just want an ideology that will allow you the opportunity to do ONLY the skilled work you want to do---and to hell with everybody else.
Clear off Barry, I dont need to take this nonsense.
: If that's 'liberty in the workplace,' then I say that 'liberty' was PURCHASED by a secondary education. Your 'liberty' is nothing more than the privilege of that opportunity expressed in 'anarchist' vernacular.
Insinuation, insult, slander.
: It's petty bourgeois reaction.
Fuck off! Who the hell are you to stand in Judge, oh hold on, that's what zealots do.
: Stoller: Let us imagine that job rotation is voluntary.
: : As it is in successful miners co-ops in Britain.
: All all those miners doing ANY OTHER WORK other than mining?
: I suspect your problem is the fear that those miners might look at you attending college and saying 'Hey, we want to do some of the skilled work, too---move over.'
Now how do you work that out? The miners rotate between management of the business, marketing and actual physical labour, now there you go, that's how to debate, not slander, slander and more slander.
: : This is the same logic as the capitalist. You are a Capitalist, I'm no longer debating with you.
: Well, I've been called many things in my time, but THAT is a first.
Or perhaps petty-murderous marxist!!!