: : Unfortunately these individuals where victims of their circumstances and the prevailing attitudes of their times but as indicments of the present order they are interesting. Besides Jesus himself was profoundly anti-state/hierarchy and didnt pull any punches about mammon. Property or God, Frenchy?
: Which individuals exactly? More?
I wasnt just refering to More but to Augustines 'City of God' and 'Confessions' and Miranda's 'Marx and the bible' 'Communism in the Bible' and 'Marx against the Marxists'.
: If Jesus was profoundly anti-state, why did he say to render unto Ceasar what was Ceasar's?
Because he was suggesting that living dominated by money is unworthy of Gods people, give those who want the money the money and live with God's own social relations in your community.
He wasnt asking for a contribution after he fed the five thousand you know.
:The Catholic Church has always recognised the legitimacy of proerly constituted authority. Hierarchy is a big thing in the Catholic Church. I don't think you really have a handle on this.
No I understand that the church has been a victim of it's own interests or rather the self-interest of it's past and present administrators. It's not how the first church was consituted and people like myself will battle the advocates of medievilism, like yourself, until we have restored the first church.
One question, which of the two are more strong Islam or Christianity? Islam has no hierarchial structure like Christianity/catholicism.
: Only God can judge a man's interior, so we'll just have to wait and see where I wind up (I have a hunch it will be purgatory, but not for the reasons you mention).
Your no doubt sincere just wrong. I mean the instructions are there in black and white in the bible and your ignoring them.
: Because Liberation Theology is nothing more than an unholy combination of Catholicism and Communism; they are mutually incompatable.
No, properly understood they are synominous. Who are you to speak of what is unholy any how? The alliance of money lenders, traders and mammonists with religious sanction that you advocate sounds no different from the kind of thing that was around in JC's day and we all know the story about the wiping and wrecking of the market in the temple dont we?
: Some small sects were Communistic, but they were condemned early on. Dittos the later ones.
Monasticism is a varient of communism and it's persisted fairly well, the evidence is against you Frenchy, even the vow of poverty taken by Priests, although I do know wealthy priests, could be construed as communism.
: OK, I don't mind you telling me a little more. Go on. Tell me about the inventions.
What your saying that rich mans advocate of an administration is the same structure that JC espoused with his assault on Mammonism and money lending?
Frenchy give us a break, hell if your anti-socialist prejudice is messing with your senses again (that US army brainwashing is fairly permanent) check out T.S. Elliots 'Idea of a Christian Society' for a conservative anti-capitalism. Hell the Catholic Truth Society publishes booklets on Christian Action or Catholic Social Initiatives which advocate a form of parternalistic corporatism, a liberal Keynesian Collectivism, it's not my socialism but hey it definitely isnt your capitalism and ruthless government.
: We have a problem here. Jesus and God are co-equal as part of the Trinity. If there is a contradiction, it is in our understanding of Scripture. Shunninh UNLAWFUL authority is one thing, shunning lawful authority is another. You wouldn't say that the Jews had an obligation to live under the Pharohs, would you?
No I wouldnt and I'd say that every government imaginable is similar to the pharohs, so we've got to make a choice between imperfect alternatives. Anyway who determines lawful? It wouldnt happen to be the establishment? The rich? The rulers? Hell I think the Pharohs probably thought they where fairly lawful.
: No, not according to what you'd prefer, according to the utopia of More. You would be subjected to interference as deemed necessary.
As deemed necessary by who though? It was a highly democratic society.
: Criminals and POW's. POW's? Yup, even in Utopia there were times when men went to war. But they always won.
I think I recall that the army drilled but fought defensively only or in situations where Utopias citizens where being persecuted in foreign lands.