- Capitalism and Alternatives -

a union is only as good as it's members.

Posted by: Lark on February 02, 19100 at 18:57:57:

In Reply to: Labor Unions posted by David on February 01, 19100 at 10:50:02:

: Trade unions in theory...but man, you should see the unions here, very corrupt they are.

Oh, I know, it's the story the world over but then again a union is only as good as it's members.

: Actually, what is becoming more popular in the technology sector is that because of quotas on how many foreigners a company can hire, companies are now hiring promising students and instead of puting them to work immediately, they send them to go and train for a year so they can develop the necessary skills. There is a serious shortage of skilled workers in the U.S. right now, our education system has failed horribly and companies are forced to hire foreigners which Trade unions do not like (In Ireland you probably did not learn about the Labor movement in the U.S. during the latter half of the 1850s. They were instrumental in getting laws passed that limited immigrants, since they worked so cheaply. The Knights of Labor were pretty much responsible for the passing of the Chinese Exclusion Act) companies hiring non-Americans (in my opinion, that is tantamount to a twisted sense of nationalistic racism).

Now I'd disagree, I am very happy to allow refugees into my country but I'm suspiscious of immigration, not because I'm racist (well I do have a kind of prejudice against anglo-saxons, nordics and aryans because of brawls with the dutch on holiday but that's not anything serious) but because I have concerns about 'welfare tourism' or the exploitation of cheap labour as a means to allow business and industry to regulate the work force.

I know your educations a joke, it's a private sector venture ruled by 'enterprise' Tony Blair thinks a good model for Britain though, asshole that he is.

: Certainly business is corruptable. As long as men run business it will be corruptable. That is why I am a libertarian, make it harder for business to be corrupt by buying off favors from politicians.

That's very commendable of you to distrust business. I can understand that you dont want businesses to be buying of politicians, I hate that too for a different reason, but that is one evil and the government is the lesser one compared to the market.

: Actually, it is more like the unmolested market leads to a society based on merit and work ethics.

So how do you explain your sorry education system? Is it not run by the market? Yet the students are not highly skilled, filled with merit and a thirst for labour no matter what that labour may be.

: :The state is viewed as a monopoly business for the purposes of policing and, often violent, punishment is it not?

: Retaliatory use of necessary force.

Is retaliation a good thing? Doesnt it just make it impossible to differentiate between the state and criminals?

: The thing is though, is that in Michigan there is about a 2.5% unemployment day, and each day my dad comes home and complains about how he cannot find decent workers. Many of them come in for a week earning $25/hour and then they start showing up late for work and missing days altogether. He is forced to fire them because of company policy and because they are not good workers. From what I've heard, this is the case all throughout Michigan. I personally have no sympathy for people who complain about being out of work and then when they get a decent paying job they become truant and tardy.

Really? You have no sympathy? Would you happily do their job?

You said 'The feeling of accomplishment is the best motivator' perhaps line work isnt a big movitator.

That said I'm making no excuses for laziness.

: I was reading Claudius the God by Robert Graves the other day, and there was a curious passage that really struck me. Claudius was describing several types of people (he was talking about Herod Agrippa at the time) and he mentions that some people are good people with good hearts, some are good people with bad hearts, some are bad people with bad hearts, and some people are scoundrels with golden hearts. That is where I fall in, scoundrels with golden hearts. Basically, people who only look out for themselves but help others while claiming it is only for themselves. This is where the whole concept of rational selfishness comes into play.

I understand self-interest but I dont think it is something to be celebrated, it has it's origins in conflict and survival struggle, it's no good thing at best it is a terrible evil that one day maybe surpassed.

: It is not as easy as you think, people can complain citing discrimination if there is no good reason for them being terminated.

I understand that not all capitalists, managers etc. are evil or bad people but on the whole, from experience, I find reasonable, sympathetic thinking are rare among employers or those only interested in making a buck. If you are a libertarian would you not oppose labour legislation as a break on business?

: The problem is though, is that Unions rarely have the interest of the workers at heart. What they have an interest in is the dues that they get paid.

I wouldnt be so happy to generalise.

:So very often, they will promise the workers unrealistic wage increases and benefits in order to get instated.

Labour relations arent bad because workers think the cow can give milk without being paid, labour relations are bad because fat cats and bosses complain perpetually that they have no incentive to earn more of work harder when their income is reduced, through taxation, but then ask the workforce to accept wage slashing, benefit slashing and insecure jobs.

:Once a union is in a company, it is very hard to get them out, even by the workers.

That's not the way it should be, it could be changed.

: Yes, I guess you could pigeon hole me as a libertarian.

Well as the yankees define it, I mean I regard myself as a libertarian because I'm in favour of democracy, civil rights and duties but I regard business as a big threat, bigger than government (though not big government), to liberty.

:But, keep in mind that libertarians have a lot more to work from in the way of real life examples than the socialists do. So, before you accuse us of having faith in theory and ignoring practice, I'll rattle off a list of "socialist" states and then ask you for some successful ones.

I believe that the practice of capitalism is contrary to the theory of the practice of capitalism. I odnt believe that those actual existing things where socialist.

: The problem though is that government can be bought off by businesses. Something I am firmly entrenched against.

And without government they become the government, hiring mercenaries etc.

: Then again though, what country isn't concerned about being dominant. I mean, every world power that has been around longer than a hundred years at one point or another tried their hand at global dominance. Albeit they did it in a more militaristic way. The U.S. is securing its dominance in the world right now. I cannot say I condone it, however, I would rather have the U.S. dominant than say, Russia, or China, or Canada.

I'd rather have no domination at all.

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