- Capitalism and Alternatives -

See what I mean? You're implying that only you are rational, and everyone else is a nut or a devil.

Posted by: NJ ( DSA, MA, USA ) on February 14, 19100 at 11:59:57:

In Reply to: Someone has to be the voice of sanity around here. posted by Frenchy on February 11, 19100 at 12:25:26:

First of all, I'm as much an American as you are; I was born in this country, and I love the sweet state of Massachusetts. That we both love the country we live in doesn't constrain eitehr of to believing in a particular idoelogy. I think that part of loving the country we live in involves hoping for teh best possible social order for our country. I think that capitalism and CIA fascism have done their best to try and corrupt the soul of America, and if we care about America we should try to detsroy the forces that brought her to this pass. I think that if we care about America we should try to return her to the idealistic state of her younger days. I think that the radical left, with the exception of some Maoists and Stalinists, has been more truly concerned about their country than teh Right. Their hope and vision for America is so high that they're unwilling to settle for anything less. it's not disloyalty to wish that your country can ascend to teh highest state possible, nor is it disloyal to hope that this exalted state may be one built on freedom, equality, and brotherhood- i.e., socialism. Now you may certainly disagree, and believe that capitalism is teh ideal state. That's your right, to have your own opinion. But it's no part of teh American ideal to postulate that only oen kind of political / economic view is acceptable, and that peopel who hodl otehr views are disloyal. That's fascism, not Americanism. (Note- i didn't call you a fascist, because you haven't amde that assertion. I'm saying that IF you make that assertion, that communism is un-American, then that is an essentially fascist point of view.)

second of all, that's a good and interesting question you aksed, "if teh Sandinistas are so good, why not move to Nicaragua?" I might well have done that if I'd been older than ten by the time the Sandinistas fell to Reagan's terrorist armies. Turns out I was born ten years too late. I have some Marxist relatives who used to live here and criticize America incessantly. Eventually they moved back to India, partly I think because they felt that american political valeus, etc. were simply too alien to them. But while they were here, they made what I think is a good argument. It's more valuable, if you're a socialist, to live in a capitalist country and try to do your best to ameliorate the system from within. In otehr words, the Nicaraguans were already doing a good job building socialism. Aren't my efforst more needed in THIS country? It's at least as courageous and difficult, I think, to try to do good in a capitalist economy, where the power-holding forces are arrayed against doing good, than in a socialist state.

Plus, of course, I like Massachusetts, I like my friends here, and I don't speak Spanish. That was a good point of yours. This is my best attempt at an answer.

As for being a 'poseur', that's a good and provocative point, but I believe, wrong. I never said I was a worker, in fact I was up front about how socilaism was against my own class interests. Nor did I attempt to speak for 'the workers'. I think that the workers and peasants, in many times and places, already sp[oke for themselves- in Vietnam, in Cuba, in Venezuela, in India, in Nicaragua, in Chile. I support socilaism simply because I believe in freedom, equality and brotehrhood, and I believe that these values are incompatible with the economic aristocracy that is capitalism. Individuals must decide for themselves whether they think capitalism or socialism satisfies these values better. If enough indiividuals want it, then we will have socialism.
I support socialism for these reasons, not because I claim to speak for workers or any such shit. If I did claim to speak for workers, you would certainly have a point. But I don't. I speak for no one but myself as a individual capable of free thought and opinion.

I've wokred in fast food, digging drainage ditches and housepainting before. And yes, I know that in a socialist society everyone may well be required to do physical labor. I'm willing to accept that. I believe in equality, and that's part of what 'equality' and 'brotherhood' mean.

: That's one million people!

100,000 actually. However many, it remains a tragedy, and although the 10 million were definitely teh fault of capitalism, and teh 300,000 killed in the mid-sixties the fault of imperialism, the hundred thousand victims of this most recent war between Mobutu, Kabila, and the Eastern insurgent armies has had little to do with capitalism, socialism, or imperialism. how could it? there is essentially no functioning economy in the DR of the Congo today, eitehr capitalist or socialist. Something should definitely be doen about it. But that's a separate issue from the (capitalist) Congo Free State.

I'll try to find you a source on teh 10 million figure. 10 million is, I think, the midpoint of teh estimates.

:And I haven't been able to locate any firm figures for that 10 million either. By the way, the Congolese did in fact help the Belgians to enslave their own people. They did the same thing in regards to slavery. Don't they themselves deserve any blame? By assigning all the blame to whites aren't you in effect saying that they are to stupid to be held up to the same standards as whites?

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