: I would nevertheless like to remind critics of the Soviet Union that the 'beacon of world democracy,' America, has in its history nothing less shameful. America's history is characterized by slave labor (Africans), ethnic genocide (Native American), rampant imperialism, and the restriction of individual freedom (indentured servitude, lack of political representation for women, etc., etc.).
Where as I would be objective in either situation and one is freedom without socialism, it is consequentially inequitable and self destructive on an individual or social scale, the other is socialism without freedom which is slavery and brutality altogether.
: A lot of quasi-socialist quacks in this debate room would rather defend a good (i.e. technologically abundant) capitalism against a bad communism (i.e. peasant underdevelopment). In my opinion, they miss the possibility that the very sort of communism they impugn would have flourished in time (especially if the capitalists weren't trying so hard to bankrupt them*).
Well as a so-called quasi-socialist (quasi- meaning not a trot or political sectarian) I've never det myself up like this, incidentially Lenin dismantled the Peasant communism of Russia, Mao under the influence of Lenin dismantled the peasant communism of China.
: But what these quasi-socialist quacks REALLY prefer is a 'socialism' that is nothing more than an esoteric construct. Is Lark's 'socialism' going to look like SDF's? Is NJ's 'socialism' going to look like Red Deathy's? No---they each have the LUXURY to dream up 'socialisms' that fit perfectly their PERSONAL desires. As Frenchy once observed, how can a procapitalist compete with an amorphous fantasy that changes each time its criticized?
Which is maybe a good reason why we should keep things as they are.
What is this infatuation with uniformity, compliance and 'unity', that is, lack of dissent, which is fundamentally unhealthy and leads to enfeeblement?
The Christian Identity Cult, KKK, Corporates, Libertarian Capitalists, sincere free market liberals etc. all bunch together to support the republics, with a great deal of success, do you ever near the Ayrian Nation or the National Socialist Green Party of America, or the National Alliance or Stormfront or Centurian 18 call having mad ideological tiffs as to which is the true vanguard?
Real unity exists in not trying to pummel everyone into conformity to some party line but in shared principles and a common enamy.
Incidentially 'my' socialism is the same as SDF and NJ's, RD is a perfectionist, there is nothing wrong with that, I dont think the vanguard should apply their boots to his neck, I also hear there are capitalists who believe in perfect competition, although they are a bit rare these days.
By the way cleverly attacking us for sectarianism while advocating your own personal variety.
: I'm going to say that, while I think most of communism's history in the 20th century was terrible, it was still better than capitalism at a comparable stage.
I would agree entirely, infact I think I'm totally and utterly of the one mind with you altogether but I think that liberty was excluded entirely from 'actual existing socialism', there was absolutely no personal or individual dimension as a consequence the power lay with the feeble but murderous institution which wherent jsut saying they where synominous with socialism but actually believeing it.
:While I'd like NOTHING BETTER than to see a peaceful revolution and a peaceful eradication of the private ownership of the means of production, I'm more than willing to see a few eggs broken if peace (for what class?) isn't possible in the interest of creating a society where the means of production belong to the workers and the capitalist expropriators are free to hit the road. The necessity of change is worth the upheaval: all revolutions have adhered to this central tenet.
You just dont get it do you? The people who are suggesting revolution is nonsense arent unduly squemish or cowardly they are realists, advocating something as remote as revolution, especially revolution that is spontaneous yet somehow led by the trot faction of the month, is very Utopian, Marx would have been dismayed.
: Anyone who disagrees will be happy to know there's yet another chance to vote for some crook again this November. But remember this as well: OVER HALF the country is no longer buying the illusion. What's in the (long-term) future is anyone's guess.
What are you doing instead of voting Barry? Debating here, talking, or rather fanatically conforming with each others views, amongst yourselves at some trotskyist meeting? That's gonna change the world.
: Workers of the World Unite! Down with the Capitalist Enemy!