- Capitalism and Alternatives -

You think free choice exists now?

Posted by: lark on March 24, 1999 at 15:07:16:

In Reply to: And if voluntary, it might just not get done posted by Crimson Tide on March 24, 1999 at 10:54:09:

: : I havent the money for a flight, I'm not Cuban I'm Irish, I dont speak spanish.

: You could learn! (just kiddin)

Well I suppose I could what I was meaning to suggest is that my patriotism demands that I'd try for it in my own green and pleasant land first.

: Like McSpotlight says, McD will get its ass kicked eventually over this thing.

I doubt it they're more than likely going to tey and kick McSpotlights ass, and look at the amount of organised opposition it took to get this far I suppose that makes a complete rubbish of the fact you capitalists are found of refering to about how the unmoderated markets bad behaviour will fade away, bit like all those marxist dictatorships that faded away into communism that.

: The nice thing about capitalist machiavelans is that they have to 'get in' on the back of wealth, not on a pseudo majority. And we can kick em, they dont have political prisoners.

No you cant kick them they'll Jail you either as at present in their state prisons or in your vision their private prisons. They do have political prisoners, what do you call the McLibel two jailed for speaking out against McDs. I'll not talk about propaganda systems if you dont talk about pseudo-majority's right?

: : In a Genuine Socialist society unpleasant work will have to be done just as it has to be done now the difference is that everyone will have to appreciate and take part in the unpleasantness.

: You got it Lark, shits gotta be shoveled and if Joe Schmoe gets voted into the job you can bet hes gonna be thinking less that comradely thoughts. Ive worked shit shovel in reality, and I only did it for the food I could buy - damn well wasnt going to steal.

You see this is you the eternal victim. You find yourself shovelling shit and instead of organising you think I'll serve "the dream" and have someone else doing this work in no time, someone who's gonna hate it just as much but not be as cunning and wimp out to a softer option employment.

: "everyone will have to appreciate" can be made more expedient by weighing in on the poor sucker 'for the good of society' - you can see why I'm ex red -in the wasteland.

What? I dont understand this bit? What wasteland?

: Whose going to keep em on their toes? Work shy 'social enforcers' or whatever euphamism for the SS they want. Free choice?

You think free choice exists now? Or would under the dictatorship of industry and finance? Facts are if you've got a loaf of bread and someone you knows not pulling their weight baking that loaf are you going to give it to them? This is straight forward your asking these questions because you hope to stump me, forget that.

: : Then we'll really, really, really see how long this unpleasantness persists wont we.

: Sure thing, i'll set the stopwatch Lark - count em out.

How do I know your not being sincer here? Listen if the guy who shits on the floor in the public toilet was the same guy who had to clean it up would he do it? I dont think so.

Give people a good taste of poverty and unpleasantness with no where to run to, no other class, and they'll work collectively to make that poverty and unpleasantness a thing of the past and that's a fact jack.

McSpotlight: Lark, as far as I know (and I know!), Helen and Dave have never been sent to prison over the McLibel trial; it was a civil trial, not a criminal one, which means that the penalties are financial, not prison terms. What happened in the original trial was that they got fined 30,000 each by McDonald's; they obviously couldn't and weren't going to pay it; they said as much on the day of the verdict.

McDonald's had a period of one month to apply to collect these damages from the Two; not something they could do without causing even more of a PR fiasco; so they pretended the whole affair had never happened and ignored the damages - since they'd already spent 10 million on the trial, they weren't going to worsen things for themselves over 60,000. They didn't try, and the deadline expired.

Since which, the Two have been working on the Appeal, as the trial wasn't remotely fair. McDonald's have just been carrying on as per before; there was a mooted RSPCA investigation into the cruel practices McD's were found guilty of, but it hasn't happened yet. In submissions for the appeal, McDonald's admitted that they were satisfied with the findings of the first trial; admitting to exploitation of children and workers, cruelty to animals and the promotion of unhealthy food.

It's as if the entire trial hadn't happened, except for the fact that McDonald's can no longer use their pet UK weapon (the libel writ) and they've paid 10 million in court fees for the main trial alone, let alone the appeal.

McSpotlight is pretty safe, as far as it goes; we exist in several countries, all of which have different libel laws; to mount an efficient closure of McSpotlight, they would need to take down every server at the same time, or we'd set up mirrors elsewhere. In addition, they'd need to seize all 1,000 CD-ROMs of the site and impound them. Try to imagine the dent in McDonald's PR machine caused by McLibel cases running in 4 or 5 countries simultaneously...McD's aren't stupid enough to try it (I hope!).

I'm not commenting on the rest of your post, but I hope it clears up a few points about the case; as I see it, we've won the trial, regardless of what the appeal judges say on the 31st of March (and the appeal verdict can't un-find any of the original rulings!). McDonald's would be extremely foolish to try silencing anyone again in the way they tried to with the McLibel Two...

Follow Ups:

The Debating Room Post a Followup