- Capitalism and Alternatives -


Posted by: Red Death ( Socialist Party, UK ) on March 30, 1999 at 18:18:56:

In Reply to: Deathy: A Truce posted by Joel Jacobson on March 30, 1999 at 12:21:21:

: a) "exploitation" is your opinion of what happens today

Not if it can be demonstrated that some people benefit from the labour of others, through systematic unequal exchange.

: b) "alienation" is your opinion of what happens today

I'll agree that alienation is still subject to debate, however, if it can be shown that people feel a lack of connection to their work, their society and their fellows, then I could be persuaded that it exists.

: c) "relative poverty is harmful" is your opinion

Again, if it is proven that relative poverty leads to injustice, ineuality in terms of social power, and social resentment, then no, I do not think it is opinion.

: d) your particular definition of "social classes" comes from your particular point of view and is your opinion

No, that my definition of social class comes from teh best method of determining class, one that can be tested against social conditions and historically verified.

: e) essences of becoming like "capitalism" and "socialism" have relevance to your mind but no relevance to a great many other minds; these essences are your particular viewpoint.

No, I would say a great many other minds share the use of these terms in their analsysis of the world, as part of their schematic models. And further, that some system of profduction does exist.

: f) all values are based on opinion

No, values are based on socialisation.

: g) you cannot prove the explanatory primacy of historical materialism (I'm pretty sure I've provided enough instances where it doesn't fit)

You haven't, I'm afraid, you've attacked a straw target version of it.

: k) under any system, we are still dependent upon the Kantian Good Will for a peaceful and social existance.

Dunno, not read that much of Kant.

: l) you have not given a positivist analysis of your envisioned "socialism"

Because I refuse to do so, on teh grounds that it is authoritarian of me to try and draw up a 'plan' for socialism, its also pointless, because I couldn't possibly know teh exact position of things come the day of teh revolution- suffice to say socialism will be teh free democratic association of people, producting for needs and not profits or exchange, and thus would be without money.

: m) Your values cannot be attributed to someone else

No, I share a lot ofvalues with the people around me.

: If you agree with these let's move past the tediousousness of our personal viewpoints of classifications and provide positive analysis of how we can change the world.

My turn:
a) Do you agree that wages are produced by the 'value/'price' of skills on a open labour market, rather than any other ,means, say- the value of the goods they produce?
b)that the owners of property do not receive wealth via a wage mechanism, but rather than through their ownership of property?
c)That poverty is a necessary and irradicable attribute of capitalism?
d)That the wage relation is a relation of power?

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