- Capitalism and Alternatives -

And you?

Posted by: Red Deathy ( Socialist Party, UK ) on April 13, 1999 at 19:01:56:

In Reply to: certainly the way you see it. posted by Gee on April 13, 1999 at 17:39:32:

: The 'crisis' in in the usurpation of the individual by the collective, whether that collective is a quasi democracy influenced by competition for favor between interest groups (including businesses) or an outright totalitarianism.

However, that 'usurpation' is found in the general self movement of capitalism, all the super-high tech machinery, all the mergers, all the growing total interdependance, means that the individual of the old small holder capitalist owner-producer artisan days are dead and gone, all that is left is finding a place in a vast machine, and if we don't take charge of the machine, we'll never get any individuality back.

: Big business is not, by definition, the problem. The fact that some multinationals are interacting with governments in a way which has nothing to do with free association and free trade is indicative of the crisis of the reliance on force in place of reasoning.

No, big business is indeed not the problem, it is that the markets have ran out of progressive power, and are now a hinderance.

: The majority of political arguments are about which form of collectivity to reside under, which tyranny to tolerate, which democracy gives which people the most power over otehrs. the alternatice is to erode the power of one person over another. If I am and idealist it is not in the idyllic scenario (people working for pride n pleasure etc) that you, Red, describe - but in such a manner that is sustainable, that acknowledges the nature of man as specific.

And I acknowledge man as specific, as well, however, I feel that until we have collective control, and full democracy, many people cannot utilise nor realise their individuality. Humans are social animals, and any solution to the crisis of self-hood must be a social solution.

: The socialism you describe sounds very pleasant, except I dont know who will populate it. An expectation for 'mass consciousness' is a hopeful one, the unengineered trend of mankind has been away from tribalism and collectivism toward individuation.

But we have mass consciousness now, I'm calling for a realisation of this, so that we can finalise our individuality, and escape the regimentation and disipline imposed by wage-slavery.

:Individuality does not mean *having* to go around being nasty. It *has* to mean being free of others, and that freedom, to mean anything, requires rights to life, natural property (body & mind) and material property. Other utopias, which require massive changes in the way humans interact with themselves and others are, as you have said, an abstract utopia, not a concrete one, drawn from the possibilities of our current society.

No, all utopias are based on futurity, and change, I look to the possible trends in society, I look backwards to see tha consciouesness has changed drastically in its time, and must do so again- your definition of freedom is impossible, because it denies society exists, and that humans must be part of society, part of a totality. If your utopia merely involves how you think people now, or rather as they were, then it is indeed as I reckon, a backwards looking utopia, because capitalism, and teh market, cannot offer anything new nor better.

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