- Capitalism and Alternatives -

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Posted by: Red Deathy ( Socialist Party, Uk ) on April 14, 1999 at 18:21:41:

In Reply to: On independance and others spent breath posted by Gee on April 14, 1999 at 16:51:56:

: That is because as a proportion of gobal wealth even a Bill Gates does not stand as radically and uniquely apart as, say, a Vanderbilt or Carnegie did.

And likewise they no longer stand against an old and corrupt order, demanding progress and democracy, liberty- now they are the established order, and the only way for them to go is down....

: It isnt, there is a long line of "if I'd been where he was at that time ui'd have been a millionaire too" wannabes, but the rare qualities of the self made millionares are not readily interchangable.

As Dicken's exposed bounderby's 'Self-madeness' I supsect a lot of these multi-millionaire self made men can't truly claim total, individual credit for their sucess, often theres a bag man or six who don't get credit. For the vast majority of the population, self-millionairedom is not an option, back in 1790, it looked like it was for a big swathe of the population petit-bourgoies and artisans), taht promise no longer owrks, it has run out of steam.

: The pop stars are a sign that wealth must indeed be great, if that many unworking teenagers can make the spice girls wealthy with their pocket money then we must be well off! Thew technologies represent new wealth. A 100kg of steel used in modern computers achieves more than 100kg of steel used in a calculators of the 60s.

I know it means more wealth, but its also another idicator of the problem, that new tech is the only way for the system to advance, it can't rely on new tech forever...

: The top 100 companies on the NYSE or FTSE dont constitute a majority of the wealth held by companies. Individually they are incredably rich, taken in context they are big fish in a huge pond.

If Rover longbridge closes the effect on the British economy will be catastrophic, it'll devastate the Mid-lands- buttefly flaps its wings in China- hows about a sodding great dragon Flapping its Wings in Detroit?

: Thats wild and hopeful speculation in the hope of getting in on the start of what is becoming a huge new market. Its underlying value does not justify the stock valu, buts its future value may certainly justify the 'gamble' of the gold rush specualtion on net shares, despite the various corrections it will go through.

But such speculation has effects over the whole market, as people perhaps invest more than they should, other firms get over valued, a lot of money gets lost that way, and it is just gambling- but the buggers have nowt else to do with it, can't invest it in production...

: Infact stock correction, like house price corrections, are not disasters. They bring the cost of obtaining property down, and this allows new investors in.

But its pretty bad for the people involved, wouldn't want my pension fund, health insurance, or whatever to get wiped out that way...

: Co operation cannot mean some men deciding that some other men can or cannot undertake an action based upon opinion. If any rights are to be obseved in human interraction they must be clearly understood, enforcable and based upon mans nature as individual.
But humans aren't individuals, we are parts of a group, and can only be indivuals in a goup. democracy and co-operation allows us to act as a group, and benefit as a group.

:Co operation is better expressed by that deeply hated exchange between business owner and employee than my the 'collective' opinion of 100 villagers ranged against the intent of 10 villagers.

Why, as I said before, there is no material interest conflict in teh latter, whereas in teh former, there is.

: This breathing eachothers spent breath is irrelavent. It does not consitute a claim on others.

That we share diseases, that our bodilly integrity does not stop nor begin at our skin? Surely this undermines the whole basis of individuality..
: All interaction with others gives others no claim on me, and me no claim upon them.

Except that you cannot exist apart from them, that they made you, surely the claim of community is the claim of self interest?

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