- Capitalism and Alternatives -

everyone wants peace on their terms and their terms are different.

Posted by: lark on April 28, 1999 at 11:22:34:

In Reply to: Hey LARK, what is your analysis of The Troubles. posted by PinochetMustDie on April 27, 1999 at 15:20:02:

The main problem is that everyone wants peace on their terms and their terms are different.

: I have a left wing friend that is an orangeman (he is opposed to the marching) but his theoretical grounding is kind of lacking. His analysis may be correct but I was wondering if yours was different. He told me that religious discrimination happens from both sides hence the fear by protestants of treatment under a unification with Irish Repbulic. Also that economically everyone would be worse off as the Northern Ireland economy is propped up by UK.

I'd like to meet your friend. Orangism is a fine thing in theory, grounded in libertarianism and attempts to defend libertarian styles of religion but I think things like the drumcree stand off, where a Catholic enclave is being beseiged by orange men, should make any libertarian think twice about being orange.

Ireland is far richer than the UK and could absorb Ulster warts and all in a matter of days, this is a common unionist suggestion but it's dated. Ireland is the silicon valley of the EU so it's going to be a millionaire nation soon when the full impact of technology is recognised, they've also rigged the economy so it's cheap to invest and take your money home but their is a progressive taxation on citizens, this means that some wealth redistribution takes place but their wimping out against the businesses but in the globalist age it spells out national riches.

At present there is a huge amount of people actually go south to get jobs all the guys I know doing compting that dont want to work for British Telecom are going south to work for intel.

Discrimination is a problem but there are two factors in play here:

A) Ulster nationalists, that is unionists, are scare mongering. Paisleys "not an inch" manifesto includes not just fears of discrimination but a strange nineteenth century notion that the Dublin government is actually a puppet government for the papist dictatorship. This at a time when the republic is experiences tides of anti-clericism.

B) Ireland is a super cosmopolitan nation, in Dublin you'll meet people of every race colour and creed and everyone gets along without murdering each other because they're different. In the south they stress about racism or facistic elements all the time but since they've never been an imperial power there isnt really any credible facists movments.

: My position is something along the lines of why cant we not discriminate against anyone on grounds of religion (or any other matter unless you are a Facist) yeh I know easier said than done "I wont discriminate against them when they don't discriminate against us.".

Discrimination is only one part of it.

:Hopeing that the question of unification would become a non-issue.

Well it depends if you want a united island or a united people. In modern society people move with jobs, so your liable to find people with a turkish national identity alongside irish, british whatever now we're gonna have to live together. Nationality in my view is a matter of choice, I choose to be irish but if I wanted to be Scottish who could say I was wrong? The problem emerges here because people say hold on your not (fill in nationality), you cant be (fill in nationality), you must be (fill in nationality). They're prepared to fight to "convince" you too.

:If the actual members of the IRA doing the shooting and bombing come from extreme poverty, should not we be trying to improve their standard of living and everyone else besides?

I agree with you here but remember the RA are infamous internationally but at the minute they are totally inactive, apart from punishment beatings which I hear happen in Glasgow and the like there always being a bit of vigilantieism, and the unionists are still calling for them to hand over weapons, a gesture many would see as surrender, while at the same time some religious fanatics with connections to british Nazi groups are still killing and bombing.

: Essentially I put the above position to the IRA supporter and he went off his rocker going on about things that happened before most people alive today were born. He didn't want to know, OK so I was a rather naive the way I put it etc, but he was so bitter and twisted I could not get a decent answer from him.

Well this is it, I've known a lot of "rebels" in my time and their more inclimed to attack sympathisers as "liberal scum" etc. than their political opponents for which they've got a sort of respect.

:When I said they were killing people that may be sympathetic to what NI Catholics were going through etc let alone innocents he spouted "There are no innocents."

To a certain extent there arent but the republicans have tried not to target civilians as much as other groups, I mean specifically the Provisionals here other rebels have lit on protestant civilians left, right and centre.

: I see from a previous post that you are not a "republican" and from a lot of others that you are a Socialist. I'd really like to have your opinion.

If I lived in the south of Ireland I think I'd be a republican but not here because everythings so different, whether they like it or not the NI irish are more like the working class communities of Scotland and England than those in the south. We went on holidays once and during that time seen an influx of northerners over the 12th weekend, the orange marches that is, and they where all falling about and throwing up, dealing drugs and littering the whole place with beer cans and curry trays. This guy who didnt know where I was from said "I hate the fucking northerners".

You know it's just the way the brits get on in Spain and places.

Well hope I enlightened you a bit, if you've got an other questions just fire away.

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