: : C'mon. The Cuban military was the USSR's right hand. They supplied them, they sent them throughout the world to fight for them, and they put nuclear missiles on their land.
: You miss my point. Support from an undemocratic party state doesn't make a government undemocratic, nor does support from a liberal democracy make them liberal-democratic.
Support, no, extremely strong and active ally, yes. How many Cuban soldiers died for an Indian cause?
: : : : Uhh, huh. They like it so much that they make little rafts to escape and the Cuban military forces them to stay in the country. That's real love, man.
: : : 1) what percentage of the Cuban people attempt to escape? Something miniscule I would think. This is purely anecdotal. In any system you're going to have people who don't fit in. But there are less of those in Cuba than in other countries. In general, socialist societies have done away with alienation.
: : Think Berlin wall. Think 38th paralel. People couldn't leave for better countries most of the time, and where they could they were stopped with brutality.
: You know teh truth about teh "refugee" situation? in Vietnam, the government said that they didn't ahve any problem with refugees leaving, but that they feared the refugees would return as spies. They said that they'd let the refugees relocate to America if the Americans promised not to use them as spies. The Americans refused. Still, lots of people chose to leave communsit countreis and left, accoiunting for the population drain out of countreis likeGuyana. Of course, lots of other people left capitalist regimes;
Right wing and/or nationalist regimes.
:many were killed or otehrwise prevented from leaving. Witness the quarter-million refugees who fled the capitalist showcase of Togo for communist Benin and socialist Ghana, or the 42,000 Namibians who fled teh right-wing, super-capitalist colonial domination of South Africa fro the socialist regimes in Angola and Zambia.
Super capitalist? South Africa was basically a hell whole. It was an aristocracy of sorts. You are confusing capitalism and right wing nationalism. I think that right wing nationalist dictatorships are as bad or worse than communist/socialist ones.
: : Think about it: you live in N Korea and want out. You can't get to South Korea, China and Russia are both communist, and it would be near impossible to get to Japan. You live at any point in China and want out. Even if you could cross the mountains in the west, you're boardered by the USSR, two poor and undeveloped mountain countries,
: (where are you talking about?)
Bhutan and Nepal.
: : two poor varied countries,
Pakistan and India.
: : and a country that is constantly under attack by one of these countries.
: : It is still nearly impossible to reach Japan, Taiwan is no good and even if it is China could take it out with the push of a button,
: suppose you didn't want to "escape" into capitalist exploitation?
Not everyone would. Let's suppose that this is me, trying to escape from various nations at the height of the cold war.
: :Philippines are poor and overpopulated,
: and capitalist,
No. Just poor and overpopulated.
: :Burma is poor and undeveloped, Indochina is prety much run by China,
: Hello? You are not too well acquainted with Indochinese hsitory. Vietnam is China's bitterest enemy in the region, they fought a bloody war in 1979, they've historically had very different ideologies and foreign policies (Maoism vs. the liberal Marxism of Ho Chi Minh) , and in general they are extremely opposed to each other. the only country that was ever even distantly associated with China was Pol Pot's Democratic Kampuchea.
Ahh the democratic death feilds. Slight correction: Vietnam was communist and had the support of the USSR, Laos was the office supply store for the VCs, and Cambodia was a) communist or b) in a series of bloody coups.
: : and Hong Kong only has a short period of time before it is under Chinese control, if you could get there.
: :Turning to eastern Europe: If you're in the USSR you have no hope: Poland is communist, the balkans are communist, Czeckeslovakia is communist, Hungary is communist, and to the south you have undesireable Turkey
As a place for refugees of communism. On it's Asian borders are high mountains, and the only route there from Europe is through a communist country.
: : and a country run by Islamic fanatics. In Polan you're surrounded, in Hungary you'd have to cross mountains, in the Balkans you have to cross mountains, West Germany is very hard to reach and Finland is across almost artic terrain. You're bassically trapped if you'r ein a communist nation.
: What is your point? That it's hard to leave communsim behind if you live in a communist nation? i've got news fro you, ditto for capitalism. Do you know how hard it is to renounce US citizenship? Do you knwo how hard it's been for refugges esvcaping the genocidal capitalist regimes in Giuatemala and El Salvador?
Right wing nationalist, thank you.
If I decdie I want to live udner democratic communsim, where do I go? Nicaragua? Sorry, teh US killed that experiment in grassroots democracy. Cuba? Sorry, US flights don't go tehre. Looks like my main choice right nwo is south India- I don't ahve that much of a choice.
Well, without a superpower with enough nukes to kill everything on the planet leading them, the communist countries tend to go away. My point was that it's not only hard to escape communism, it's damn near impossible. On top of what I just described, you'd have to get a means of transpostation, and have to dodge bullets from your countries boarder guards. You and I, if we want out of US "capitalism", we just need to go to the post office, get our passport renewed, hop on a boat/car/train/plane and we're on our way. If you don't want to return to the US jsut don't pay youir taxes. It's that simple. You don't even have to avoid gun fire from the US military.
: : : 2) the reaosn why the US takes more Cuban refugees is because it ahs a policy of favoring people escapingfrom communsit countries. The Guatemalans, who were in danger of being amssacred in their own country, were summarily turned away at the door. The right-wing dictatorships of Latin America produced more refugees than Cuba, but these refugees were turned away by America.
: : As are some Cuban refugees. The US immigration laws foolishly disallow very many refugees enter the country.
: My point is that the US lets in more refugees from Cuba than from teh Guatemalan genocidal regime, or the Colombian regime taht is teh msot tyrannical in teh hemisphere., Did you kwno, by teh way, taht teh ,most tyrannical government in teh hemisphere is al;so the biggest recipient of US aid?
Yeah, we don't seem to pay much attention to who we give aid to. We support the KLA, a nationalist maoist Albanian group that would do to Serbs what Serbs are doing to Albanians.
Agian, I think US immigration laws are stupid.
: : : 3) how many of these 'refugees" are leaving for political reasons, and how many of them just can't stand living in a society where they are equal to everyone elze, rich, poor, white and black?
: : If everyone is equal and most everyone is poor, everyone is poor. Being forced in to poverty would tend to make people leave. Besides, if someone doesn't want that crap, why force them to stay?
: Why make it impossinle for aMERICANS TO ESCAPE AND ENJOY A DEMOCRATIC COMMUNIST lifestyle?
It's not. If you want to go, the US government's attitude is something like 'don't let the door hit your ass on your way out'. We don't use our military to keep people within our boarders, and we don't have any laws against leaving.
: : : 4) you haven't even addressd my substantive point- if they were dissatisfied, mroe of tehm would turn in spoiled ballots.
: : Spoiled ballots like voting for Daffy Duck? When you're voting for the one guy running, you wouldn't neccissarily think to turn in a spoiled ballot.
: No, the Cubans are well aware of their options. Not everyone who disagrees with your capitalist vision is an idiot, you know.
Yes, I know. But in reality, what's it gonna matter? Castro's gonna do a 180 because a few people turn in spoiled ballots? I think not.
: : : : : 3) Cuba has a measure of participatory democracy in that people's input is tken into account in making decisions.
: : : : In what way does peoples input count?
: : : Cuba has a degree of participatory democracy. The people elect candidates to the national assembly, and also control economic decisions through their presenbce on decision-making councils.
: : How much power do these councils have over the dictator? As much power as the house has over the President, or as much power as FDIC has over the CIA?
: You've already loaded the question by referring to castro as a dictator. As I've said, I consider it absurd and defaming to call Castro a dictator. He is not.
You still didn't answer my question.
I guess he does call himself 'president', but keep in mind so does the leader of Columbia, so does Sadaam Hussein, so does Slobodan Milosevic, etc.
Castro is a dictator in the sense that everyone must obey his will. He can make a law on without approval. He can kill you if you don't obey him. That sounds like a dictator to me.
: : : : : 4)Cuba's free speech record has markedly improved in recent years, revisionist communsim is now legal over there.
: : : : Uhh, OK.
: : : Is this a response?
: : Fine, I'll respond. Why don't they allow free speech? Are they afraid of the truth and that the people will learn the truth?
: they do allow a measure of free speech, they allow a lot of criticsim and suggestions on how to improve teh system. How much free speech do wqe have in America? the Man says you're free to speak ypour mind, but onbly those with money are really fere toi make their wpords heard. Press freedom over here is restricted to those who have money, which I consider atrocious. I'd rather favor people according to their moral and ideological commitment, as they do in Cuba, then favor them according to how much money tehy've been able to squeeze out of the working class.
How is the working calss limited in what they can say? You live in the US, right? Are you speeking your mind right now? Can you post a webpage that explains you ideas? That sounds like freedom of speech to me. Could you do all that in Cuba?
: : : : : 5) Cuba has never had death squads, genocide, etc. unliek otehr Latin American countries.
: : : : THa's cause it's a small, isolated country. Not too many different groups inhabit Cuba, and it is not nationalist.
: : : 1) Cuba is neither small nor isolated. It has more people than Somoza's Nicaragua or Rios' Guatemalla, both of which carried out repression or genocide. It has more people than Uruguay, which was at one point possibly the most repressive country in the world.
: : How many different ethnic backgrounds are there in Cuba? Have their ancestors been killing eachother off for no appearent reason for hundreds of years? Is their leader nationalist?
It has to have a few of those to commit genocide.
: Not necessarily.Cuba used to have a significamnt race problem, which was dealt with by Castro. The DR was fairly ethnically monochrome, as was Uruguay, both of which resorted to an amazing degree of repression. Cuba was extremely repressive udner Batista, was it not? But Castro, as a dedicated liberal communsit, chose not to follow that path. No death squads either. And by teh way, death squads in brazil, El Salvador, etc. have generally been uded as instruments of CLASS oppression, not of race warfare.
OK, Batista was a bad sumbith, I agree. But one fact still reamins: most or all of the leaders that you have refered to are nationalist. Castro is not.
: : : 2) Cuba is possibly the least isolated country in the world. more Cuban volunteers serve overseas than almsot any other country. Cuba sends doctors to South Africa, and has volunteered in the past to send medical relief to the deprived people of Harlem.
: : We should let them into Harlem. They are isolated from the western world(ie NATO), and this is one of the west's mistakes in dealing with them. We keep them locked off from other ideas, which makes them less likely to revolt.
: Have you looked ta the otehr possibilty? that teh US isolates its own downtrodden population 9in Harlem) from Cuba's good example so that the downtrodden will not realize taht there is another, better way- teh socialist way? Perhaps the Man is afraid that inner0-city African Americans will become radicalized if the know what's out tehre, for as bob Dylan said, "when ya ain't got nothing you got nothin to lose."
: I think this scares the MAn shitless.
Uhh, OK. I'd say that the people of Harlem are already ready for socialism, and I can't blame em.
: : : : : 6) On the question of libertarianism, did you knoa that Cuba has no laws agaisnt homosexuality, whereas many American states do?
: : : : What laws against gays? In the US, gays arfe generally more protected than regular people.
: : : you evidently are not familiar with the anti-sodomy statutes that are on the books in many states? In Bowers vs. Hardwick (mid-80s) the Supreme Court ruled thet Georgia had the right to ban gay sex. My home state of Massachusetts forbids fornication, either hetero- or homosexual. I think oral sex and/or fornication are also illegal in about a dozen states.
: : : Cuba's laws say taht homosexuality is just as natural as heterosexuality. Can you seriously imagine ANY American state government conceding that? I think not.
: : No, I couldn't. I'm in agreement with you that consentual crimes are a load of crap. However, I would be suprised if Cuba doesn't have at least some laws like that.
: That';s apparently in Cuab's Cponstitution, best of my knwoledge.
OK, so they done good there.
: : : : : 7) Castro has killed an absolute MAXIMUM of 12,000 people in 40 years, while his right-wing predecessor killed 20,000 in seven years.
: : : : Right wing, yes. Capitalist, no.
: : : He was capitalist in the same sense that Stalin was a communist. He was capitalist in the sense that he served teh interests of the US business class. Why else do you think the US continues its shameful embargo on Cuba?
: : The US is not capitalist. The Right Wing is generally nationalist, crazed, and allied with a super power. Capitalism stays isolated to a certain extent.
: Name a government which is capitalist, and then I'll name thsoe which i think are communsit. We've got to get some definitions straight.
I agree whole heartedly. Since there hasn't been a capitalist nation of note since WWI, how bout I define capitalism for you.
My definintion is this: Almost everything is privatized. The governments only role is to keep people from breaking laws(laws would be kept to a minimum) adn keep the boarders safe. Laws would only be passed if they were decidedly good, and could be agreed upon by most, ie it would be illeagal to kill. Another responsibility of the government would be to print money and make sure that the money was backed by a resource, though this probably could be privatized.
That's my definition, how about yours?