- Capitalism and Alternatives -

A Reply To The Oinker

Posted by: Asarualim on June 30, 1999 at 10:24:58:

In Reply to: The market doesnt fail to provide for the poor. posted by The Capitalist Pig on June 30, 1999 at 00:17:25:

: : : Commrade Red (how appropriate) I see your socialist drivel hasnt changed a bit.
I know this isn't my thread but the arguements being made by the little piggy just drove me to make some comments.

: The market doesnt fail to provide for the poor. it doesnt provide for anyone

THAT is what's wrong with it.

: People have to provide for themselves. the market only efficiently allocates resources. If you produce $20.00 worth of goods or services you are paid that amount so that you can purchase $20.00 worth of goods or services that you wish to consume.

That is not true. Where does the profit come from hmmm? Check out the labor theory of value and thye idea of surplus value. There was a very long thread that discussed the issue in depth earlier. Also, your conception of capitalism fails to account for economic growth; its entirely circular. I get twenty dollars, spend some here, you get twenty dollars, spend it here, etc. the same twenty dollars circulates ad infinitum. Where does growth occur and how do business cycles develop?

:The market is fair in this sense however it may not square with our sense of social justice.

Well poverty, social dislocation, decadent materialism, crime, and the erosion of democracy are certainly offend my sense of social justice, but that's just me.

:This why there are progressive taxes and other forms of wealth redistribution. Politicians have decided they will correct the so called social inequalities of the market by extracting income from those that have produced it and giving it to those who have not.
This causes most of the crises in the market not the market itself.

You are oh so wrong here. Recessions are the result of too much saving and not enough consuming. Over allocation of saving only occurs when there is an uneven distribution of wealth, hence the more even the disrtribution of wealth, the more anticyclical the economy becomes. Furthermore, the progressive tax system is even better at being countercyclical because it automatically removes more money from the economy in prosperopus times, reducing inflation, and places more money in the economy during recessions, stimulating the economy. This is why progressive tax systems are considered by economists to be automatic stabilizers i.e it prevents teh economy from going into wasteful, excessive booms and busts.

: Deathy I understand where you are coming from with your concern for the poor but I think you'll agree the poor are better off in a strong economy rather than a weak one. When resources are misallocated through gov't programs they are used inefficently thereby acting as a drag on the economy as a whole.

The old invisible hand arguement? It's a myth, a fairy tale, a folk legend much like the three little pigs. Our economy is rigged by large corporations, rich bond holders, and money centered banks to promote profits. Moreover, there is no intrinsic reason why the free market, if it actually was free, would actual provide for the needs of the people. It certainly didn;t in the 19th century.

: : :Usually those who have failed blame the system instead of themselves. It easier to blame a faceless system for ones personal lack of success.

The system is about people, CP. Capitalism and the dictates of capital is nothing more than the realitions within society, the relations among people. Property, capital, rent, interest, etc. are mere creations of our brains, clever words concocted by econiomist, to rationalize the current social relations of production.

: Don't start using children to peddle your socialist dogma. Use ideas not propaganda. Having children is a choice. Lay the blame where it belongs.

Non sequitor.

: Its an interesting coincindence that the countries with the most generous unemployment benefits have the highest rate of unemployment.
: The stronger the saftey net the more it becomes a bed. Why have BMW and Mercedes opened factories in the U.S. ? Productivity.
: Your welfare state has destroyed you economy not the market. your blaming the wrong thing.

This is the problem with globalization, it erodes the welfare state, hence leaving capital opne to destroy itself.

: As for falling wages in the U.S. when you consider healthcare benefits and other non wage compensation wages have not declined unless of course you factor in the highest taxes as a percentage of GDP in history. Again you are blaming the wrong thing.

Wrong again. Real wages, along with productivity, have stagnated the last thirty years. It is only until recently that things have begune to pick up, eight years into an economic expansion!!!

: P.S. what does Buh mean?

That's a good question.

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