- Capitalism and Alternatives -

Not round 'ere lad.

Posted by: Red Deathy ( Socialist Party, UK ) on July 21, 1999 at 17:19:02:

In Reply to: isnt that illegal? posted by Gee on July 21, 1999 at 14:41:25:

: They dont therefore share your values, as evidenced from your many months of discussion here.

no, they don't share my ideas, but many many share values of solidarity, justioce and democracy.

:Most of the disagreements come from people whose social situation is broadly similar to yours. Even if all people valued their friends/family they shall be valuing different people and seeking to place their effort to the benefit of those people and self, not to the various people valued by others.

Correct, but it still means that they are working socially and co-operatively to that end, - the point is that if everyone is working for teh direct interests of their friends, then over-all, we have something called socialism.

: Dreamy. The only 'central pot' they'll accept is one exclusive to the valued ones, however intricate and overlapping the web of valued people is a big global pot does nothing to answer peoples personal values and alot to frustrate them.

Yes, a remote pot would frustrate them, but direct and immediate access to goods, and to the means of procuring goods, to satisfy the needs of their valued ones, is a different matter.

: Each of you in the mix wanting *your* values met creating conflict in how you want your ability apportioned. It doesnt all 'balance out' somehow.

No, because my twelve will want to look out for their otehr friends, and through negotiation, discussion, and cultural similarities, we cmome to an agreement- democracy demands full frank and free discussion.

: You misunderstand. If A values B aswell as self then A will work toward A & B, A will not want C to take what he can give to A&B.

No, A will not want to see B disadvantaged, and will not care about C, unless they hate them badly. A will want to see the best for B, but need not be the sole agent for achieving that end.

: Hence their rats arses are only alerted when mutual benefit is available and only to the extend of that benefit - not everything or nothing, but selective trade.

Yes, they'll only select what they need to get, and give away only that which is needed elseplace (I wouldn't expect Teeside to export tatties, unless somewhere badly needed them). Its not trade. nor would it have to be so.

: Thats why you care - to make them and you well, and when they are well - if you value making them even 'weller' over the next bunch of folk thats what you'll want to do. Why stop at a 'well' level - people dont.

No, people will stop at satisfaction, at a cultural idea of what is neceessary, people don't want ever more just for the sake of it.

: The man alone is related to the fact that no man can know anothers mind - that man cannot be part of another in any objectively real fashion.

No, teh man alone is the idea that each comes seperately, distinctly and uniquely into teh social world- i may not be able to 'know' your mind, but I know that it is not isolated, and it is not self-enclosed, nor 'unique', that it comes as part of a social consciousness.

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