- Capitalism and Alternatives -

Re: For N. Jaikumar, et. al.

Posted by: Nikhil Jaikumar on August 22, 1999 at 12:25:10:

In Reply to: For N. Jaikumar, et. al. posted by Dr. Cruel on August 21, 1999 at 10:29:35:

: Leftist usually get ‘coerced’ when they incite riots. This is of course what the purpose of the riot is all about. Left-wing activists have similarly been ‘coerced’ for making bombs, planning bank robberies and assassinations (of which one Ms. Davis is quite notorious), and other such ‘publicity stunts’.

: As for the Nicaraguans: I seem to remember a failed attempt at genocide, directed at the Miskito indians in 1980. They subsequently turned from their luke-warm support for the regime to outright hostility. I have been told that the indians ‘deserved it’ …

FACT: The Miskito leadership, prior yto the Sandinista revolution, had thoroughly repressed their Sumo and Rama neighboring tribes. When teh Sandinistas encoraged them to move, for their own safety, out of a war zone, they responded by bombing clinics and other civilain targets in honor of the Geneva convention. Quite quickly, teh Sandinistas backtracked and granted them autonomy in Velaya province of a degree that no Indiands in the US enjoyed- even considering that they formed only 25% of teh population of Velaya!

: I agree that the subsequent elections overseen by the U.N. were run much better. As in the former Yugoslavia, there is a sudden reasonability that comes over communist (and ex-communist) ‘leaders of the people’ when confronted by AmericanBloc-led military force. Now that kind of coercion I support, as do most ethnically-cleansed types as well.

FACT: The 1990 electiosn were hardly fair, because they were held under duress by teh US. How did it go- If you vote out the FSLN, we give you lots & lots of aid, but if you don't we murder your people and destroy your economy? Very "fair" and democratic there. Don't ven try to tell me you defend this sort of thing.

: System of Representation

: If you would argue the virtues of the European as opposed to the Anglo-American system of power-sharing, you would be on stronger ground. During the period when the Sandanistas enjoyed ‘64% of the electorate’, they had armed supporters in the streets of Managua. That sort of ‘representation’ is a system more similar to, say, that of Mussolini and his blackshirts.

FACT: OK, you just shot down your previous argument that Nicaragua was a one-party state, by conceding that the dominant party commanded "only" 64% of the vote. By teh way, your other statement was just plain inaccurate- the article made cLEAR that there was NO legal compulsion to vote in Nicaragua, unlike in otehr Central American countries, so your reference to "legal compulsions to vote" in teh Soviet Union, etc. is utterly irrelevant.

: In any case - the majority of people who, at the time, were strongly against the FSLN were voting with their lives at the time. I seem to recall them winning, too.

FACT: The majority was never opposed to the FSLN. Those who voted in favor of the #@#%@$ Chamorro did so because tehy feared continued murder and terrorism by the Contras.

: Minorities

: See ‘Miskito indians’.

FACT: See above. The genocide of eth Miskito Indiands never occurred.

Also, does nepotism count for anything anymore, or was Danny Ortega’s brother really that qualified? The same might be said for Fidel’s family, or the 'B’aath' tendencies of one Mr. Hussein (Tikrit being rather unduly represented in this neo-Stalinist state). And so on. Or is the FSLN in fact a conservative movement, meant to establish a more traditional feudalism amongst the peasants? Might this be why so many Sandanista activists found themselves such large landowners during the war? Or is that what 'land redistribution' is all about?

: You might as well say that Germans have a less democratic government; I seem to remember a similar issue with a Jewish minority there. Or do you claim that the modern American state is the heir of the ultra-nationalists of the Indian wars? I assure you - if we were, this discussion would not be necessary.

: (Incidentally, I applaud the fact that we do not murder our dissenters in the streets. Unfortunately, communists seem to feel excused in this behavior, and thus ought to be opposed by decent people. QED.)

FACT: Lack of evidence again....ho hum.

: Religious Freedom

: As in Cuba, religious persecution was certainly attempted in Nicaragua.

Which would explain the position of many Catholic priests in the FSLN, the fact that teh Constitution seriously discussed invoking the name of God, the spread of liberation theology. Very logical.

:Unlike Cuba, in Nicaragua the attempt was disasterous. The attempts at imposing ‘liberation theology’ on the natives likewise antagonized more people than it ‘converted’.

Umm, liberation theology was and remains very popular, although not with the Pope....

:Thus, as is stated correctly, the Catholic Church is still a powerful force in Nicaragua - in spite of, rather than because of the tolerance of, the communist regime during that relatively brief period.

FACT: No evidence.

: I of course would assume that a more successful revolution would have led to more concrete ‘gains’. After all, Hitler did not start slaughtering Jews en masse until 1942 or so; Stalin also started relatively late with the Ukrainian kulaks, well after he had established his ‘iron’ rule over the Russian people.

FACT: Ditto. Only thsi time, plenty of ad hominem slander as well.

:The Nicaraguans never had that much support, and contented themselves with the murder and oppression of weaker sub-groups within their society.

See above, pertaining to the nonexistent "genocide".

: Human Needs

: Nicaragua obviously has a better track record of meeting human needs, doesn’t it? Why then don’t you get your ‘human needs’ fulfilled there, instead of pontificating in the ‘relative poverty’ of the United States?

FACT: Good question! Since the replacement of democracy with oligarchy in 1990. the economy and standard of living have catapulted downwards. If teh Sandinistas were still in power, you can bet I would spend my college days fighting to support them- I can't think of anything better than to give my life for the defence of teh Sandinista Front.

: Incidentally, I was never aware that I had a ‘human need’ for revolutionary taxes and a political re-education. Although I would agree with you that, at many supposed ‘institutions of higher learning’ in the U.S. (run quite openly by sympathizers of these ‘Latin human resource managers’), environments are created with might be compared less favorably to those enjoyed by Nicaraguan peons.

: Just one more point. I quite actively campaigned against the Sandanistas in college, enduring death-threats to do so.

You certainly ahve the right to support whomever you want. If I had been tehre, hwoever, I woudl have been in teh abrricades with Ortega and his allies, helping them mainatin their liberatory revolution.

:I am not in the least bit impressed by their new-found belief in democracy since their defeat, ‘Ode to Joy’ and all. Let them keep house with the Klan and the Bolsheviks, for I’ll have no part in their rhetorical wrigglings. I’ve as much respect for this sort of thing as I have for Nazi revisionism.

Hello? Hello? You misudnerstood me. Their beliefe in democracy is not newfound, and they have no need to reform. tehy were good in 1979, good in 1984, and are good now. They had NO need to reform, tehy were already in 1984 far mroe democratic than teh A,mericans.

: So there.

: "Doc" Cruel (Pompous-Buffoon-at-Large)

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