- Capitalism and Alternatives -

Wishful thinking doesn't prove much.

Posted by: Quincunx on September 14, 1999 at 20:35:28:

In Reply to: I wish it was wacky posted by Winslow Wacker on September 08, 1999 at 10:59:41:

WW: Your use of the word "seeems"(sic) in your first
whine indicates your own uncertainty - you'll just
have to trust me.

Qx: No it doesn't. It's a sign of skepticism.
Especially now that you claim to be a Marxist.


WW: No. I consider myself a Marxist (still learning)
worker but I am not a socialist in the activist or
academic sense of the word - I'm not a
"semi-professional " or a "professional" socialist.

Qx: Winslow contradicts himself here but if he's
still a "learning worker" why the nostalgia for being
a frat boy? Perhaps he's just fantasizing.

WW: I think a lot of these folks have a negative
attitude toward white american working people - we're
just "Joe six-packs" to them. But these guys aren't
the only ones - the entire left seems to have this
attitude. And when they really want to get down and
show how bad-ass they are they call us fascists,
racists, imperialists, etc. I think this is a loser
strategy and it pisses me off.

Qx: Well, well, well...So Winslow is enraged and
has an anger control problem. By seizing the mantle
of "white american working people" Winslow has a
reason to pity himself. But before we do that let's
take a look at his first posting.

In it he states that

"If you want socialism without the state,
then your first move should be to reduce the
state to the barest minimum - and libertarians
are the best bet because, property aside,
they have surprisingly much in common with
stateless socialists."

If I'm skeptical about his hematology thesis I'm also skeptical about his intelligence.


WW: You're right, not critically.

Qx: Then I shall href="http://www.rit.org/">recommend something
for you.


WW: But you two remind of the kind of people who ask
me if I'm in the Klan because I have a Southern
accent - always assuming the worst.

Qx: Uh...Excuse me but I lived in east Texas for a
very long time and I know the various kinds of
bullshitters when I see, hear, and read them. I'll
put you in a Category 4-Retrograde Whiner slot w/
predilictions for self-pity. Besides, it's been talked about before. Why bore us?

WW: And you both write like elitist whiners,
especially you, always demanding documentation.

Qx: (LOL) What's wrong with asking for a reference?
There's nothing elitist nor whining about that. I
even asked politely. Ever heard of manners?

WW: God forbid if working people just talked!

Qx: It could quite messy . I remember one time one
(my lunch break from a drywalling job no less) when I
asked a bank manager about fractional banking.


: : WW: But it's not limited to these two hacks.

: : Qx: Sure we'll get a third hack to help everybody
out with bilious diatribes of href="http://www.mcspotlight.org/debate/capitalism/messages/7156.html">sanctimonious

WW: Thanks for the memories.

Qx: You're welcome.


: : Qx: Please provide a reference as to what issue
that was and if there's even a URL hyperlink then go
ahead and provide that too. Right now you're using it
as a silly weapon. (*hint-mumble velocity)

WW: As you wish master: "Affirmative Action: Who
Wins?" by Tom Dooley. New Unionist. July, 1995 No.
216. Shall I draw your bath too?

Qx: Yes, please do. But get your smarmy bum out of it
first. By the way, I'm not really that impressed with
the New Unionist Party anyhow.

: : WW:Another example: Winslow prefers an affinity
group strategy (as opposed to unions) so Quincunx
calls him a "phony, capitalist newspeaker who doesn't
care about the world".

: : Qx: And yet another example: Winslow types out href="http://www.mcspotlight.org/debate/capitalism/messages/6273.html">pretty
things that get some people fooled but shows his
real self href="http://www.mcspotlight.org/debate/capitalism/messages/7156.html">later

WW: Tough shit for you. Get thicker skin.

Qx: So it looks like you really aren't at all
dedicated to trying to make sense of capitalism and
the alternatives are you? Those postings of yours
that I've highlighted are a testament tou your
arrogance and ignorance. If you really were a Marxist
(or anything else for that matter) you would have
shown a bit more decency.


: : WW:(Incidently, I am baffled as to why Quincunx,
who obviously holds to the axiom that "the
emancipation of wage-workers is the task of
wage-workers themselves", would label attempts at
extension and expansion of wage-workers'
self-activities as supplementing capital's acts at
fragmenting wage-workers.

: : Qx: More accurately I have doubted your
authenticity by noting as before that you're using a
straw man. If anybody else had written what you had
here I would see it as coming from someone who is
authentic in their desire to understand and make
sense of capitalism and the alternatives. Coming from
you it's pretty obvious that you have a lot of
maturing to do.

WW: Doubting my authenticity? Because I'm a white
male american worker who isn't in the least
intimidated by your cheap, elitist shakedown tactics?

Qx: Doubting your authenticity because of what you've
just dreamed up and described? Not at all. I doubt
your authenticity because you're too mean hearted and
resort to haragues and insults that are more
reminiscent of Mao-era press releases from China.
That's not cheap. It's certainly not elitist and it's
hardly a shake down tactic. It's an observation and
if you're intimidated by that then perhaps you should
go somewhere else to discuss your anger and rage.

WW: You haven't answered the question and you are
using ad hominem to get around it.

Qx: You haven't even asked a question and still use
the ancient method of ad-hominem flinging. How about
talking about capitlaism and alternatives if you're
really so concerned about working folks?

Winslow Shops for an Ashram

: : WW: Go figure. Quincunx would do better to read
Stan Weir or the history of the Kamunist
Kranti/Collectivities group in Faridabad, India) Or
how about Lark's use of words like "fascist" and
"racist" when some libertarian type disagrees on an
issue like gun control.

: : Qx: Wow!! You must really have a hate-on for Lark
and I. Actually we've disagreed heavily on the issue
of Kosovo and I'm not fond of gun control legislation.I
f I really needed to brush up on
leftists groupings in India I would just have to talk
to my next door neigbours from Kerala and not try to
go to a book for a source of social gospel. It's
probably a good book but you seem to do it a
disservice by using it as a reference.

WW: Kammunist Kranti/Collectivities explicitly reject

Qx: Define "Leftism". Please?

WW: Their "termite" strategy has succeeded in opening
up a space for genuine worker discussion in an
industrial city of 300,000.

Qx: Good for them. Why don't you go there and write a
book about it since you're so enamoured with it.
Maybe you'll even attain enlightenment.

Oh, one thing you did miss out on though....
The union in the situation you mention in your
hematology theses was a trade union. Not an industrial
union. You really screwed up by equating
my stance with that union.


Let's look at what you said:"The workers' self-activity intensified: many stopped
paying their dues and kept side-stepping the union leadership until the "sacrifices" were
" Now why the hell couldn't you just say direct action? Do you not understand the basic questions to ask about a union?

Now let's look at this bit here..."
Coagulation may not even be created by representation but it certainly engenders it."

What he has done is typed out a pretty posting in a specialist language that is full of managerial style discourse. It's also evident in later posting in which he states"Unity and unifocality are the mantras of state and proto-state apparatuses.
" and tosses up a doozy by going further and typing out "Even those fringe left groups that are explicitly anti-state have as their axis activities that
are geared to unity and unifocal forms.
" Well, anybody can read in these postings that he wasn't speaking plain English. I prefer plain English. It tends to work well. Winslow seems angry that I would even ask but then again he's angry about a lot of things.


WW: Why aren't your neighbors in Kerala? I hear many
positive things about Kerala.

Qx: Because thwey have their own lives to live. Ever heard of individual autonomy? It's not something that has to be written in specialist terms.

Winslow Reaches the Heights of Vain

: : Qx: And by considering it the height of vanity
you have missed the point. I doubt that you really
care at all and part of your reason for posting here
is to vent your misdirected rage at anybody who
challenges you.

: It is your doubt that is misguided. I generally
direct my rage at people who rage at me first, as in
your case. But just because someone is an asshole to
you, it doesn't entitle you to generalize it and say
"they don't care about the world". More vanity on
your part.

: : WW: And I think most socialists have no one to
blame but themselves for their marginalized
existence. It seems they want it this way.

: : Qx: Then you should do some reading about href="http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/interviews/9201%2Dpropaganda.html">Americanism
and how you arrive at this atrribution is quite

: I think the "Left" condemns itself to isolation
when it alienates working people. This is truly
pathetic. I'll try to read the book someday, although
Chomsky is a bit pedantic.

: : WW: Red Deathy, on the other hand, is one cool cat.

: : Qx: Hey! I though you had posted earlier that you
would quit kissing ass.

: I can't help it - Red Deathy kicks ass.
: : P.S.: href="http://www.mcspotlight.org/debate/capitalism/messages/6786.html">Explain these little ditties you typed out a while back.

: Later on I will.

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