: And I've never read 'Das Kapital'. Big deal.
: OK, there ya go.
Fine you are coming to your conclusions about these materials by reading second or third hand sources which may be classified as propaganda. Why dont you read them? If they confirm your prejudices and invented notions then fine what have you to lose?
: Here's what I do know; no matter how you slice it, dice it, or shread it, the socialist/communist/liberal/green ideals that many of you propose are simply wrong-headed.
OK it has been said before that you shouldnt lump those categories of political ideals together, the only reason you could be doing this is that you perceive the "Left" as an organised homogenious unit, it isnt and I would appreciate it if you ceased in your allegations to this effect, I mean would you appreciate it if I refered to all opposition to my views as nazi/facist/republican/neo-liberal conservative/capitalist? No I dont think you would.
Now tell me why it is simply wrong headed, what do you mean by this? Perhaps you have no real reason for hating the left other than a gut feeling or ingrained prejudice or perhaps a sinister empathy with people like the freikorps?
:The only way they work is when they are forced on people.
I dont think that's necessarily the case but if you wish to debate force, left wing thought by no means has the monopoly in this field, to such an extent that perhaps it is best to leave allegations of violence aside and discuss the ideologies, views and opinions instead.
: Here's my solution, one I've proposed many times; When you see a homeless guy, or someone that is makeing lousy wages and can't support himself according to your standards, take him in, give him your food, share your soap, allow him equal use of your gas range.
That is fine as far as it goes, admirable even, but I can't perform such acts on a global, national or even more than local scale. Charity is fine but it eventually leads to dependency and then it degrades both parties.
: Do you guys care about the man, or do you really care about power?
This is a very sound question citizen, you are perhaps used to dealing with a different calibre of socialist etc. the sort that is more concerned with fousting a monolithic superstructure upon everyone else, the type of person who finds it easier to empathise with institutions, parties, leadership or abstract theories than people.
However that view is unpopular in this debate room, the socialists here are of an entirely different calibre altogether, in fact I would recommend that that sort of Zealot find God in some format because what they really want is the domination of reactionary religion.
I think that you are no doubt sincere and believe that the views about socialism etc. that have been conveyed to you by whoever are correct, I hope that by debating, and I mean debating which requires a relatively open mind and a reluctance to digress to libel or defamation, I can prove to you that we are sincere about our ideas too and dont want to construct a totalitarianism we can empathise with inorder to tyrannise over others.
: PS. Was Solzhenitsyn another fraud like David Horowitz? A rabble-rouser who just wanted to get into print?
I dont know who these people are but right wing literature in my experience has a great tendency towards self-importance, lack of critical empathy and tolerance of difference.