: Right Don I know you to be a laissez faire dogmatist who's genuinely ignorant of politics so read and learn.
: : Don: Actually I consider the current Russia (which replaced the USSR) to be fascist.
: What you mean that bastion of free market economics? There's an incredible wealth of evidence to prove that this is anarcho-capitalism in overdrive. Where the hell do you get the notion they're facist?
Don: They certainly are not capitalist. The state retains ownership of much industry, a hold over from their old days as communists. They state retains considerable control over industry that is not state owned, so it is basically fascist.
: :And I consider the current PRC to be a strange stepchild of communism and fascism. The former never worked, the latter works only too well.
: I really dont know what the PRC is I cant comment.
: : :every researcher knows that correlation does not prove causation but I suppose we'll do this again for this benefit.
: : Don: It is interesting, though, that communism and a free society have never been correlated.
: What you refer to as communism isnt and you know it so please pay the complement of not insulting me further.
Don: Well. I happen to believe that the USSR and PRC were genuine attempts at communism. I think we can all agree that "true" communism was not achieved, but that is because it can never be achieved--it will never work. The fact remains that communism has *never* been correlated with freedom.
: : : There are, taken at face value, similarities between the regimes in that they sought the concentration and consolidation of power in a single leader and murderously repressed the unions etc. but the ideologies where very different one involved the state becoming the solitary capitalist, therefore apparently increasing efficiency and happiness, the other the state becoming the protector of capitalists.
: : Don: In fact, fascism and communism are very similar, which is probably why communists and fascists hate each other so.
: Oh so the libertarian party hates the republican party, naturally.
Don: Unlike socialists, communists, and fascists, the libertarians are nice people who don't hate anyone.
: By Christ read my posts before writting such drivel.
: : : In either instance the will of the capitalist was unquestionable and they where in no way accountable to the people as in liberal democracies, given that the socialist is concerned about the unaccountability of private individuals and power and compulsion they exercise it is incredible that anyone can draw the conclusion that the USSR or Nazi Germany where Socialist.
: : Don: In fact, in both systems the STATE dominates.
: FACT in facism the MARKET DOMINATES IN COLLUSION WITH THE STATE, facism is COMPETITION.
Don: In fascism, the state dominates and controls industry. One of the reasons for fascism was to avoid the uncertainty of the market, through state control. Of course, the market problems in the '20s and '30s were due to state intervension, but the fascists didn't understand this.
: : : If we want to get into the really, really childish and stupid arguments about "well it was called socialist" or "they claimed to be Socialist" then would DonS consider China Democratic because they call themselves the peoples democratic republic of China
: : Don: In fact, I consider the PRC to be more fascist than socialist; socialism has already failed there. As socialism has failed the world over.
: As I said I dont know what the PRC is, as to your statement about socialism I really dont see what criteria your using to judge it a failure perhaps you'll enlighten me as to it and then I'll comment.
Don: In the past, the PRC had only state owned industry. The PRC could not compete with the west, so they undertook "market reforms". They did not develop a free-market, but rather a quasi-fascist system. Fascism is a truly evil system, because it actually works. Socialism does not work, so while it is indeed evil it is a short lived evil.
: : : or Pinochets death dealing military marketeer Chile the Capitalist ideal of Milton Friedmanns "Capitalism and Freedom" because Pinochet claimed it was the model of his regime?
: : Don: The success of their free-market retirement plan is quite remarkable. One hopes they adopt more free-market reforms.
: The sucess of their murderous purge and torture of anyone who failed to conform with the "free" market was remarkable too, this is CLASSIC ETHICAL BLINDSPOTTING on the behalf of capitalists, it's not alright under Stalin, Hitler etc. because they have a different ideology but it's alright under a capitalist despot.
Don: I never said it was alright in Chile. I support the reforms while opposing the evil. The evils in Chile were not due to free-market forces.
: If it's contray to freedom, that is political, social and civil liberties it is ALWAYS WRONG, not excuseable because the current despot is a whatever.
Don: Yes, but the free-market reforms in Chile were not contrary to freedom. The fact that they occurred at the same time as government sponsered evils does not change this. Free-market reforms can be undertaken one bit at a time--because the free-market works. Socialism doesn't work. That's why socialists demand this ideal situation where it doesn't have to compete with other systems, and that's why the socialists experiments that have occured have involved repression and bloodshed.
: : : I would suggest that DonS as a would be defender of liberty and freedom not repeat the mistakes of Hayek, Friedmann et al and get a political education rather than operating on assumptions and believeing the word of the Machavellian ruling classes of puesdo-communist regimes.
: : Don: I've never believed a thing that Bill Clinton said, so you must have me confused with someone else.
: I tell you what go into a the nearist farmers field and walk up and down talking this free market dogma and maybe he'll thank you for the fertiliser, I've no need for this shite.
Don: No, I want to see you go to the nearest farm and talk land reform. That should be fun to watch.