- Capitalism and Alternatives -

Labor disagreements are not the same thing a physical violence.

Posted by: DonS ( USA ) on November 05, 1999 at 15:25:34:

In Reply to: I can accept difference and disagreement, I know that socialism isnt the only political strain of thought posted by Lark on November 03, 1999 at 14:05:00:

: : Don: I feel I have the right to strike and picket, but I think the boss has the right to bring in other workers to do the job.

: OK so if someone strikes you with their fist and you strike back DEFENDING yourself you think your assailant has the right to strike you again?

Don: No, but that is a poor analogy. Labor disagreements are not the same thing a physical violence. Workers can look for work elsewhere--and it is wrong to assume they are right and management is wrong.

: : Don: I have nothing but love for socialists (well, quite a bit of pity, too).

: Nonsense Don, a bit of honesty wouldnt go a miss and dont patronise me with your pity I dont need it I'm not a calculator like you and Frenchy.

Don: In fact, I simply think socialists are mistaken. I don't have any great feelings about them one way or another, and I'm inclined to like and dislike them for personal reasons--not because of their political ideas.

: :Since you are pretty dogmatic, I detect considerable self hate in you.

: Your going to explain this statement including the self hatred right? As it stands it's an opinion and adds nothing to the debate.

Don: Correct. I was pulling your chain.

:As for dogmaticism, you could possibly indicate where I have been, I've never repeated the lines I've read in books incessantly convinced that all else is lies and that anyone who disagrees are brainwashed.

Don: Indeed, you do seem to be dogmatic. I'm serious. I didn't say anything about repeating lines from books, or anything like that. It seems to me you have your ideas and there is no changing them.

:I think your programmed with prejudice because you have these assumptions about socialists (EG that they all venerate Stalin and Mao etc. even if they say they dont) which you cling to.

Don: I realize they don't all venerate Stalin and Mao. I'm just afraid that those who gain power will end up doing bad things like Stalin and Mao. My thesis isn't that socialists are bad people; rather it is that socialism won't work, and lots of people will die in an attempt to prove otherwise. Basically, I think that any socialist revolution will begin to fail, pragmatic leaders will emerge who will "do what needs to be done", and the results will be horrible.

: :Perhaps you can get some professional help.

: Oh, yeah right, the totalitarian one dimensional thought shining through, your politics are a bit like a fundamentalist religion you know that? I can accept difference and disagreement, I know that socialism isnt the only political strain of thought that contains elements of truth but you, it's I'm right, my views are right, everyone else is mental.

Don: You need to lighten up.

: You know this was a common attitude among Soviet elites they'd send dissidents to mental institutes for thinking there was any alternative socialism so that they could be born again to the party.

Don: Or anyone who fell out of official favor.

: : Don: Prior to this post, I haven't said anything about unions. Most unions seem to be hotbeads of corruption, but in principle I don't oppose them. I do not believe that workers should be FORCED to join unions in order to hold a job.

: I agree with you here, I apologise for assuming that you where opposed to organised labour practices, that was possibly a demonstration of my prejuedice but then no ones perfect and it's usually safe to assume that when people militantly defend the laissez faire markets they dont want any attempt at planning etc. by the state or other agencies of the just.

Don: I don't support central planning or anything more than minimal state planning. I also think workers should be free to organize and join unions. I don't support state organized unions . . .

: : Don: I think socialism is a bad idea, and I oppose it. I never suggested violence against people who believe in socialism just because of their beliefs. If they plan to use violence to achieve their ends, that is another matter.

: OK if a state was elected with a popular mandate and it began restructing the economy, while simultaneously workers organised in unions etc. took posession of factories and began to organise production on their own would you simply let it happen? You wouldnt join whatever brownshirt style strike breakers and propertarian militants arouse in reaction? I find that hard to believe.

Don: If workers began taking factories from their owners, I'd side with the owners--with violence if necessary. The act of taking the factory from its owners is the iniation of violence.

: : Don: I appoligize to the Marxists out there for associating this guy with your you.

: This is all typed badly, I dont know what it's meant to mean. A bit ruffled Don by any chance?

Don: Not a bit ruffled--I'm having fun. I tend to get sloppy near the end of the post. I was insulting you--apologizing to the Marxists for thinking you were one of them. Don't take it seriously.

Follow Ups:


The Debating Room Post a Followup