: I'm as Dutch as one can be and still be born here. Born into an
: Americanized Dutch family two full generations off the boat does
: not make me Dutch but don't tell any of my father's this without
: bring prepared for it. The name Gort is a cognate of Vander Hoort which, because of the very guttural pronounciation became Gort at Ellis
: Island in 1925. Grandfather (deceased) was a barley farmer as the name
: apparently alludes to. My opinions come from his and my fathers' trips
: to the Netherlands to visit relatives and their recollections of those
: trips as well as most of my grandfathers' early adulthood. Pardon me
: for continuing to disbelieve your accolades of a culture running headlong to hedonistic ruin.Have YOU been there? No disrespect to your parents or grandparents, but it's common for each generation to say the following one is going to hell in a handbasket.
The British having been saying it about their kids for over a thousand years now - the first recorded Saxon poem basically says "It's all getting worse and the young people of today are to blame." What I have seen, from my visits to the Netherlands, and from my Dutch friends, is an open-minded, liberal, freethinking society that _wasn't_ forever trying to hold on to the past.
Now, if you dislike those attitudes, of course it will seem that the place is going to pot (literally!). I don't. After all, the 1940's and '50's weren't exactly ideal years for the Netherlands, thanks to World War II and the aftermath.
: Second point; No Gideon! Not Terence Mckenna! Surely it must seem
: to one with self proclaimed open eyes that the man is rationalizing
: a liftime of drug abuse with this nonsense of his.
On the contrary, his ideas are backed up by the available evidence. There is widespread evidence of drug use in most "primitive" societies in the world - I mentioned that prehistoric stomach contents included psilocybin mushrooms. The Native Americans used peyote and similar substances; the Aborigines tried to keep in touch with the Dreamtime via narcotics; the Ancient Chinese and Indians used opium and cannabis extensively in mystical practices, as did the Middle East. The South American Indians used coca leaves (that's cocaine) as a stimulant. Oddly enough, there is evidence of cross-Atlantic prehistoric trade here - cocaine has been detected in Ancient Egyptian mummies, despite only growing in South America. You get the point, I hope - humanity has been getting wasted for a long time now.
: Of course, Captain
: Cubanis can have wide open eyes (and dilated pupils) but he might be
: seeing things that aren't even there. Thats why they're called
: hallucinogens.
The name is perhaps inappropriate. Apart from the psychedelia, the only common effect that hallucinogens have is to amplify existing traits. Yes, you are amenable to persuasion under acid or mushrooms, but a bad trip usually comes from within rather than without.
This isn't a categorical statement - as with any illicit drug, impurities are quite commonplace. If you arrest Owsley, who made reasonably pure stuff, you leave the door open to his inferior imitators.
: Mark S. (one of those friends) jumped off the Vincent St. Thomas
: in Long Beach, CA in the early 1980's. He suffered terrible permanant
: psychosis from LSD. He was OK until one fatefull day when he took the
: wrong thing and he stayed high for the rest of his short life. The
: more I type, the more I resent the position you hold. Tell me Gideon,
: if Mark should be free to experiment with drugs and all we can do is
: educate him, are you suggesting he got what was coming to him?
It's tragic that such things happen, I'm not disputing that. On the other hand, there are a few things to make clear here...
1. People die every day. From the absurdest things. How many people die because they were fooling around in a car at the wrong moment? Are you suggesting that everything that carries the slightest risk should be banned?
2. Acid doesn't generally produce personality disorders. Most of the screwups under the influence of acid comes from being unable to cope with a latent flaw in yourself that you can't avoid in that state. It is pretty much impossible to lie to yourself under acid. It is also pretty much impossible to sweep things under the carpet that you can't face. As such, any latent self-hate will REALLY come out.
If you're unable to rise above it all and say "I am comfortable with all of my flaws, many though they may be", you should NOT be taking acid. Full stop. Ditto if you have any history of mental illness or instability.
You will also be fairly gullible during a trip - the concept of lying becomes so alien that you believe other people to be incapable of such an immoral act. As such, stay well clear of any twisted sod who will persuade you that you can fly or something similar. If new to acid, you should be supervised at all times by someone who knows what you're going through and can be trusted implicitly.
It's certainly not something you should take "just for the hell of it". Treat it with the utmost care and respect, for it _can_ help you do yourself great harm (much like the Bible, which has probably caused more deaths than anything else in history). Taken in the right circumstances, it can be a revelation (after all, what do you think St. John of Patmos took?)
Don't take it for fun. It should be taken very occasionally _in moderation_ in a relaxed and unstressed atmosphere.
Now, if those few points were actually heeded by anyone thinking about taking acid (or similar hallucinogens) a lot of the mishaps that _do_ happen under acid could be avoided. They're basically very simple guidelines, but most of the acid casualties are people who ignored them. Or people who didn't receive an education about the potential dangers.
Would you suggest that people who didn't know how to drive be allowed to? Of course not - they'd be death on wheels. Similarly, anyone who is considering a drug should research or receive basic instructions on how not to screw up. It is, after all, only common sense.
Of course, you could say "say no to drugs!". Yet people have taken them through all of human history and are going to continue.
In my opinion, it is more important to try and make sure that those who _do_ are reasonably well-informed about the do's and don'ts than it is to cling to an impossible and unsustainable moral rectitude. Drugs are part of our everyday life, from caffeine to cocaine, from aspirin to acid.
:You see,
: Marks' father was a neurosurgeon and Mark always got A'a in school. I
: assume he knew the risks as I did (but that didn't stop me either).
: What should we do with the worthless person who made this killer : batch of L? Anything? Nothing?
Where do you lay the blame? The guy who made the duff acid? The fact that it was made in a backyard, which invariably leads to fairly impure stuff? Yes, it was a tragedy to those concerned, but apart from the incompetence of the manufacturer, your friend made his own choice to take the stuff. How informed was he of the points I've outlined above?
Was he with anyone who could help guide him out of a bad trip?
There is a vast difference between merely knowing the standard school stuff (viz it causes disorientation, mild heart stimulation, psychedelia, etc) and knowing the real guidelines (i.e. don't go anywhere that will freak you out, DON'T go anywhere high you could fall off, don't drive and stay with someone you trust).
Speaking of the 20+ trips I've had, I've never had a bad one or lost it, largely because I followed the above guidelines. I trust you'll grant me that; however much my views differ from yours, my reasoning faculties are pretty much untouched by my past (I haven't had any in two years now).
Stuart, would you deny it was your friend's choice to take what he did?. Granted, he may have been totally unaware of the possible consequences, but he chose freely to take it.
How do you reconcile your loathing of big government telling you what to do whilst at the same time maintaining that you know what other people should do better than they do? On one hand you are saying "I don't want X to tell me what to do" whilst simultaneously saying "Y, drugs are bad, so don't take them".
In my opinion, the best thing you can do for other people is to give them as much unbiased information as you can and allow them to make their own choice. I'm not condoning drug use - I have used drugs and had a worthwhile time, but I certainly wouldn't pretend that everyone should.
And it's a hallmark of the Big Brother state that it says "do what I say and don't ask why!"
Gideon.
(who has just spent 4 hours over this reply)
None.
