:
: : Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori?: Latin is a beautiful language. So floral and silken. It is also
: dead and useless except in the smallest little esoteric corners of
: this planet - which makes your choosing it so ironic. It is
: perfectly analogous to your ideaology in this way.
On the contrary. Latin is used extensively in the scientific and legal worlds (true, most of it is for terminology, yet it is still Latin) and Latin will aid your learning of any of the "Latin" languages. Oh, and it's used also by the major branch of the Christian Church...
On the other hand, the phrase "perfectly analogous to your ideology" is meaningless, or such meaning it possesses is trivial.
In actual fact, the line was relevant to the discussion, although you could not read it. It's a very famous aphorism by the Roman poet Horace and means "It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country".
It is also a famous poem written by Wilfred Owen (1893-1918) about the idiocy of patriotic jingoism. With McSpotlight's indulgence, I'll quote the entire thing here, as it's a damn good poem.
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Dulce Et Decorum Est.
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick, green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,-
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desparate glory
The old Lie: Dulce Et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
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(Historical note: "five-nines" a British 5.9 inch howitzer shell filled with chlorine gas. The implication being that the narrator's party was caught in "friendly fire" that had undershot - hence "tired, outstripped")
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My point? Dying for your country is the needless wasting of life for an illusory entity. The idea of something as large as a nation state having any real existence is an artificial construct; a fantasy. If you have to do something for "your country", you should live as long as you can for it and do your best to make things as good as possible there.
I may be an idealist, but I'm not dim enough to think that anyone (apart from my family and friends) would care if I went off to die in some far corner of a foreign field.
: Lead is lead Farinata. Imperialistic communism is not democracy
: though. Maybe you don't value freedom as I do but whatever freedom
: you or I have was once fought for or defended by a soldier. Christ
: said that "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his
: life for his brother".
How many brothers do you have? It's unrealistic to describe everyone in your country as being your brother - the state is far too big for that, even a Big Brother state. Speaking personally, I'd only use violence to defend myself or those of my friends I consider in need of defence. Anything else is an artifice, and I'd never defend a fascist just because "he happens to live in my country". No. My fellow countrymen and -women are not my brothers or sisters. This is not to say that I am incapable of working with them, however.
Of course, if you're talking about fighting for freedom, what about those who fought for their freedom at Wounded Knee? What does your history book say about them?
Freedom is as much a state of mind as body. They can lock me up, but as long as my mind is free I will never be imprisoned.
: Many soldiers have died defending our freedom against imperialistic :communism.
Tch. I'd have hoped you would have more sense than to make a remark like that here. As any number of people will tell you only too happily, "Marxism" and "Communism" have never actually seen the light of day. The Eastern Bloc was, if anything, a totalitarian dictatorship, not a Commune.
: Let us try to put this into very viceral terms.
- because visceral terms are good media fodder; an easy way of generating outrage by tweaking the emotional strings...
: Communism is being indicted for the deaths of up to 100,000,000
: people as it is counted in "The Black Book of Communism" currently
: stirring up quite a pot in France at the moment.
As I've said, and Frode has said, capitalism is currently causing the deaths of 40,000,000 a year. When over-felling of slow-growing forests for timber causes soil loss from mountain slopes (leading to mudslides and landslides), Adam Smith is as much to blame as the logger is.
: If you line them up head to toe it would wrap around the earth 4
: times. If you give them the dignity of an isolated grave, we could
: bury them in an area the size of 33,500 soccer fields. If you wish
: to bury them at sea and say one minute's worth of kindness about
: each one, it will take you 190 years to finish. If we use Frode's
: example, the Soviets would have to shoot one K.A.L. 747 out of the
: sky every day for 782 years.
: It is going to be very difficult for you to dispute the facts of
: this case. "The Black Book of Communism" was compiled by a very
: well respected group of six professors. The only quarrels seem to
: be whether it was 85 or 100 million. The Third Reich was responsible
: for a sum total of one quarter that of godless communism. Does the
: wishful accusation of capitalistic genocide really stack up to the
: realities of this world Farinata? Or are collectivists now, having
: suffered defeat, resorting to nonsense like this to generate support?
Ah, does that mean you are saying that the Nazis were ideologically better than the Communists, because they killed fewer people?
Or are you merely trying to use the body count to sensationalize the dirty deeds of those Godless evil Commie perverts? Hardly a subtle trick.
Again, market forces have probably killed more people in the last quarter century than Communist forces have in the last century.
: : If there's a noble use for military might, I can't think of it ever seeing the light of day. The very most you can say is that it can be used to defend yourself against someone else's military might. Which means that the justification for military might is the existence of military might - a circular position, and not one solved by tooling up with more firepower.
: Do you then suggest unilateral disarmament by the nicer nations?
: 6000 years of recorded human history should warn against that plan.
No. The world being what it is, it's not going to happen. That does not mean we need to keep spending ever-greater sums on armaments that are never likely to be used. And it doesn't mean that we should give other countries reason to increase their armaments.
Farinata
