Day 237 - 18 04 96 - Page 46

     1   MS. STEEL:  Yes, that is the point.  I am trying to put it to
     2        the witness because of distortion from the television.
     3
     4   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  If you can think of a better way of doing it,
     5        do.  One approach would be to ask him if he ever remembers
     6        saying anything like that, quite apart from whether he can
     7        be heard to say it on the sound track or not, or whether he
     8        heard any reference to an "undercover lady" or can think
     9        what an undercover lady might be.  You do not have to bind
    10        yourself to what you say you can hear on the sound track.
    11
    12   MS. STEEL (To the witness):  Mr. Carroll, do you remember saying
    13        something about an undercover lady being present on a
    14        demonstration?
    15        A.   Certainly not.
    16
    17   Q.   Were you aware of undercover ladies being present on
    18        demonstrations?
    19        A.   No.
    20
    21   Q.   You still had agents employed in October 1991, did you not?
    22        A.   I do not know.  As I say, I did not deal with that
    23        side of it.  I was at Barlows at one or two meetings there,
    24        but I never got to know the identity of what agents were
    25        involved or what sex they were, even.
    26
    27   Q.   I mean, I would actually like the witness to listen to it
    28        in better circumstances or something.  I do not know
    29        whether -----
    30
    31   MR. RAMPTON:  I am not prompted to ask the witness to do
    32        anything at all.  I would need to know the relevance of all
    33        this.  I have sat quite patiently while we have been
    34        through the identities of various bystanders on this, that
    35        and the other, but I am not at the moment entirely
    36        following, or at all following, what the relevance of this
    37        is supposed to be.
    38
    39   MS. STEEL:  The previous people we asked about were not
    40        bystanders.  They were Security Department who were
    41        supposed to be taking photographs.
    42
    43   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  The argument is arid at the moment because
    44        unless you have a way of producing a clearer cut sound
    45        track, quite apart from any question of relevance, you have
    46        Mr. Carroll saying he does not recognize it as his voice
    47        and saying that he did not say an undercover lady was
    48        present.  If you can -----
    49
    50   MS. STEEL:  I asked him whether he remembered saying it and he 
    51        said he did not. 
    52 
    53   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  He said, "I certainly do not remember saying
    54        it".  But unless you can produce a clearer sound track,
    55        there we are.
    56
    57   MS. STEEL:  I believe the originals are in the Plaintiff's
    58        possession, so I do not know whether they can arrange
    59        that.
    60
 
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