- Capitalism and Alternatives -

Care to justify this?

Posted by: Nikhil Jaikumar ( DSA, MA, USA ) on December 22, 1999 at 20:47:47:

In Reply to: Picture a fat german choking on a bratwurst posted by David on December 22, 1999 at 17:23:06:

: Ahh yes, Barries statistics. The ones he misinterprets and bends to his own machinations at will.

When Barry cites statistics, they're 'machinations', but when you cite statistics they're valid? Care to justify this?

:You are going to here his most treasured stats relating to how many people have B.A.s and how many jobs do not require B.A.s. The similiarity he attributes to a capitalist-bourgeoise conspiracy to keep the working man down.

Actually, whether or not you see it as a 'conspiracy' - and I don't, not really- Barry's statistics are valid, convincing, and deeply troubling. You ought to recognize that and at least give Barry his due. Don't you find it troubling that vast numbers of people work in low-paying, unskilled jobs? And that people like you and me do not (at elast, we have the oportunity not to)? Unless you think that you are in some way BETTER than the California grape picker, then such a contrast will inevtiably be highly troubling, whether or not you accept job rotation. I suppose the real question to ask is, is teh skilled worker somehjow better or more deserving than the unskilled one. And anyone who asnwers "yes" is the one who is REALLY flirting with fascism.

: The thing is though, is that college does not guarantee you a job (try getting one with a major in philosophy...I have some anecdotal evidence for that one...)

Yes, but a college education si clearly a Good Thing, at least for teh majority off people who would like to have one. If it is a good thing, then why shouldn't it available to anyone who wants one? I think that anyone who says that there's nothing wrong with poverty or lack of education should follow his beliefs and refuse to be wealthy or educated hismelf. Otherwise, he is being merely hypocritical; adbocating one standard for himself, another for the poor.

:Anyways though, even people who do not have a B.A. or higher college education can still do very well for themselves. Tool and Die makers for instance can usually make around $25-$30 per hour. Trades can be very lucrative to get into. In fact, my father who is in the automotive industry (VP, earning $180,000/year without even finishing high school) has found that hiring people with MBAs and B.A.s often perform quite poorly because they have absolutely no experience and are too indoctrinated in how things should be. That is why he hires a man with experience over a man with a college degree.

But in Barry's arguemnt, both teh 'experienced' man and teh college educated one are skilled workers. (I think). In any case, a socialist state ought to make private businessmen an anachronism.

: : In the past (such as here and here), David---when confronted with those authorites---readily admited that HE has no authorities to back his statements up.

: That was because I was arguing the ethics of a system, not the practical real life workings of one. I was asking Barry to justify his premises, something he just writes off a Randian-Ploy (perhaps he should by a book on philosophical debate).

: : However, growing frustrated with defending the indefensible (capitalism), David now simply calls me a fascist. Which is entirely in the spirit of Ayn Rand's les-than-vigorous 'epistolmology.'

: Well Barry, by the same standard everyone seems to hold to Frenchy, I would be perfectly right in calling you one.

Nonsense. Frenchy endorsed colonial theft of land, physical assault on people who suggested socialistic ideas to peasant, teh superioirty fo some cultures over others, the idea taht weapons of mass destruction are 'good', the idea that the poor are deserving of their misery, etcetra. I can supply you direct quotes from Frenchy on any of these if you want. All of these are essentially teh same ideas shared by fascists and others of the extreme Right.

Barry's ideology, on the otehr hand, is an example of extreme antifacsism. He is so eager to protect humanity from teh depredations of fascism and its cousins that he, I think, tips teh scale too far in the other direction.

:Frenchy posts an article about South Africa that was written by a neo-nazi. All of a sudden Frenchy is a Hitler-Youth Ubermechen neo-nazi. While in your post you quote Hitler to prove

Nonsense. I remember teh quote. Barry was responding to youra ccusation that he was similar to a fascist. He essentially made teh following argument. "Hitler said X, I say anti-X, therefore I am not a a fascist." If the statment proves anything, it proves that he is NOT a fascist. Frenchy, on the other hand, quoted teh Nazi's argument without comment, which leaves open the question of whether he is a fascist or not. If I quote Hitler's comments about sausage to prove taht Hitler liked sausage, then that doesn't mean I'm a fascist. Can we be a little mature here?

: You see Barry, I called you a fascist because your grand scheme of job rotation in which you regulate people's activities and those that do not work you will initiate force against those people.

Barry wouldn't 'regulate' anyone. Job rotation ensures that everyone would get a chance to be the government. Therefore teh whole idea of a hierarchy (necessary to fascism) developing is meaningless. Fascism is not the same as the mild authoritarianism that Barry might advocate. P[lease get your definitions straight.

::I would also like to bring to my defense that fact that Barry is a majoritarianist.


As I said here, the MAJORITY of people must want socialism before it can happen. Only the MINORITY (cancer cells) will be treated with force. The socialism that the majority wants will be 'implemented' by majority rule (which, admittedly, is called 'force' by those in the minority who are sore losers).


: Ah yes, Barry's sore losers. Basically mob rule. His only defense of it is going on the offensive and saying "Well, you do like this minority rule?!?!"

I've already criticized Barry in that regard, but I really don't think what you advocate is any better...

: Essentially, my reason for calling you a fascist is your justification of heavy-handed rule (dictatorship)

The diea of a dictatorship without a dictator is a contradiction in terms. Job rottaion is incompatible with dictatorship. Job rotation is simply democracy taken to its ultimate extreme.

:and your justification of using force against people who do not submit your your uberplannen (I'm just making up German words now).
: However, I do not believe that you are a fascist in the Nazi sense, nor even the Franco sense. The reason for adding the German words up there was that this is probably the only time I'd get to make up German words :)

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