- Capitalism and Alternatives -


Posted by: Red Deathy ( Socialist party, UK ) on April 09, 1999 at 16:28:26:

In Reply to: herse posted by Gee on April 09, 1999 at 14:15:47:

: The losers are those very people who would have accepted work to improve their condition.

No, because they can still work, except they will have to be employed *above* the rate they would have accepted. So instead of grubbing despereately for $1 an hour they get $4 an hour along with everyone else, otherwise everyone's wage suffers.

Capitalists actually need this counter-balance, in their tendancy to drive wages down, and various factors of the market, they have teh capacity to destroy their own labourforce, and force wages to a level that cuts production, Unions in these circumstances act as a police that says 'if you cut our wages further, you will lose out'. To do so, they must fight wage cutting.

: You mean that a teenager asks for less and can do the exact same job as an adult who asks for more. When you go into the store to buy carrots do you ask about the welfare of the farmer prior to choosing the less expensive of the two?

Some people do. But this can be harmeful to a sector, if one firm starts doing this, all teh rest can be damaged, and *everyone's* wages go down.

: The newer industries have tons of opportunities. It ouwld indeed be distressing to find that your 20 years of spot welding for a steel plant is near useless, but other people are gaining jobs due to their skills with computer tech, medical know how, architecture etc etc. Adaptation to change.

Usually younger peopel, the older people were mostly scrap heaped, or broken because their last vestiges of pride were taken from them. taking averages is all well and good, but specific people,in specific instances have been badly damaged by this forced change.

: Then I must assume that because most of the south does not, the south is a good place to find work, and modern communications allow people to get to it in an hour or two. Hardly ideal (spending 10 hours a week on trains) but idyllic is not what we are discussing.

Not possible, there aren't that many jobs down there, specifically not paying high enough to cover the train fares, plus its about three hours (one of my Uncles does commute from Teeside to Bolton, but...) its hardly teh basis for founding a firm community, is it? Or would you rather we all became migrant workers?

: How would you help those communities in the *short* term? By taking jobs from southerners and creating equal misery for all? I would suggest that instant resolutions are not an option.

No, I would abolish teh wages system, as a short term solution, and begin local management of teeside, production for needs not profits, etc. Competing for jobs is no option, only working with teh southerners, and the French, Germans, Yanks, Canadians, etc. to bring about a new world economy, would truly help the people of this region. (BTW_-The Socialist Party is Standing a List of Candidates for the North East Euro Constituency, if anyone out tehre is interested in voting for us- Also Standing For the Scottish parliament in Glasgow and Lothians).

: Not a constant of capitalism per se, but a constant where the victims (ie those who actually supply what is used in favour - the taxed) comply to what is happening.

So so long as big business propps up teh state though, and pays directly out of its pockets for political parties, the system won;'t change? Hmmm...democratic. ;)

Follow Ups:

  • hisnt Gee si April 09 1999 (2)
    • Tch! Red Deathy Socialist party Uk April 09 1999 (1)
      • Tchoh! Gee April 12 1999 (0)

The Debating Room Post a Followup