- Capitalism and Alternatives -

Where do you think money comes from?

Posted by: The capitalist Pig ( freedom, USA ) on July 02, 1999 at 14:17:04:

In Reply to: Equality of Opportunity = Equality of Outcome. posted by Red Deathy on July 01, 1999 at 15:34:06:

: : a) A good amount I hope since the return is better, and being in the investment industry I manage that money.

: Uh-huh. So thats not a big change then, really...workers don't suddenly have more money.

yes it is extremely significant. $200.00 invested monthly for 30 years at 12% grows to $706,000.00 At 5% it grows to only 167,000 (bank rates). But it takes time and discipline something most socialists have no concept of.

: : Sure, All they need is money. Even the unemployed.

: uh-huh, but the unemployed would have enough cash in hand (or credit rating) to invest, and them as have work rely on that work to get the investment sum?

Sorry Red your going to have to clarify that last statement, I cant make sense of it.

: : Some, they are usually called retirees.

: But that amount has been accumulated solely off the basis of their earnings, i.e. they've had to work to get that money. A Pension isn't quite living off investments.

In this country many people save for their own retirements and live off of that money. and of course its from their earnings. Where do you think money comes from?

: : Others, are working towards that day. Is it me or isnt this obvious?

: No, because thats teh difference between working class and capitalist class- teh working class have to sell their labour power to get money, whereas the capitalist class just invest capital to get more money, and thus need never work.

Just who is this capitalist class you are referring to? Wealthy people I know still work 60 to 80hour weeks.
: : Actually there are many millionares out there. Many are average people who invested with discipline in their 401k plans (a self directed retirement plan)

: Uh-huh, but millionaires are now relative to the billionaires? yes? And Millionaires are still a minority of the population.

So what? don't you get it, most millionaires and billionares are in fact self made. Very few inherit. These people the bottom and worked their way up. In most cases they've made many others wealthy along the
way, and produced goods and services that we use today.

: Its called rhetoric.

to bad it has no grounding in reality.

: : Tell that to the workers of many companies for example microsoft, walmart, and home depot who have participated in esops (employee stock ownership plans and are either or are on there way to becoming millionares.

: A tiny minority, and many other firms with 'profit sharing schemes' are simply using the scheme to prop up wages, etc.

You are one unhappy person. I think I am starting to figure out the psychology of socialists. You think eveyone is a victim. Except of course if you've got money then you have of course exploited someone in order to get it.

: : duh, if you owned 51% of the company would you want someone who had less than 1% to have an equal say. Or to put it in your convuluted thinking if someone invested capital representative of there lifetime worth of labor into a company, should it be the same as someone who put in capital equivalent to only a few hours worth of their labor?

: So, then, its not democracy.
It is to the extent of your interest in the company to do otherwise would be disatrous. If every shareholder had an equal say regardless of percentage ownership rival companies could buy a minority interest with many shareholders, then theoretically they could replace the board and president with farm animals.

: : No pensions or investment firms merely manage the money they do not own it.

: But they *control* it. Which is important.

Only to the extent they are allowed, they can be easily fired and replaced

: : As usual you are obsessed with the equality of outcomes rather than equality of opportunity. Socialism guarantees the equal suffering of all. unless of course you are of the ruling class.

: 1:Equality of opportunity would result in equality of outcome.

If that were true then personal choices made in ones life would have nothing to do with the results. for example two twins, same opportunities, one studies works hard and saves his money the other is a drug addict never works, and expects his parents or government to support him. Under your theory they should have the same outcome. Your ideas don't square with reality.

: 2:Socialism gaiurantees the equality of benefits.

Tell that to the North Koreans who get one bowl of rice a day, while Kim Jong Ill builds his nuclear asenal. I am sure they are thrilled about the equality of it.

: 3:Socialism means the abolition of all classes.

don't even think about blowing that old smoke up my behind. Capitalism
rewards the producers. Socialism rewards beauracrats and central planners ie. the ruling class. the difference is capitalists earned it the socialists steal it.

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