: : : In a culture that is not barbarian, economic rights are readily granted to children, the sick, and the infirm. (Freedom from want) In a more enlightened culture, these economic rights would extend to guaranteed shelter and employment at a liveable wage.
: : Don: And these rights must be provided by action by the government. This means these rights end when the government cannot provide for all.
: The right is defined and determined by a people who decide that right.
Don: But the rights you want must be *provided* by the government, using government funds. When (not if) these funds grow low the government will have to decide who gets these rights and who doesn't, or perhaps it can simply redefine "housing" to mean "cardboard box" and "education" to mean "several lashes".
: :So these rights aren't real rights, but really are a sort of privledge.
: Privilege implies exception, ie, not available to all.
Don: Which must be the case for housing, food, education, and health care under any system at some point in time--so these are privileges.
: :Further, these rights must be based upon some form of taxation, ie., taking from others, by force if necessary. These rights imply force.
: Force is implied in the implimentation of rights. This applies to ALL rights.
Don: This is only true if rights must be defended. This is quite a different thing than the force implied in the "rights" you want: a daily initiation of force against all citizens.
: ESPECIALLY Property Rights.
Don: Only from the point of view of a thief . . .
: : : Get it through your head. We live in a class society.
: : Don: That doesn't seem to be the case in my part of the US. People move from poor to rich (and visa versa) quickly. I do not see any fixed class.
: : :It is inevitable that values of liberty and freedom held by each class will collide.
: : Don: Of course, that isn't true.
: Dream on.
Don: Of course it's not true. I know people who are rich and who are poor--and they both have the same concepts of rights. I've been poor myself (I'm not rich, but I currently have a high income). My concept of rights is the same as it was when I lived in a trailer and was deep in debt with a low paying job. Your statement is *false*.