Day 111 - 30 Mar 95 - Page 15

     
     1        in food stuffs, but they would not be pathogenic and they
     2        would not normally cause any disease.
     3
     4   Q.   So the ones that have been obliterated in that section are
     5        klebseilla spec?
     6        A.  Subspecies.
     7
     8   Q.   The last one is streptococcus faecalis?
     9        A.  Yes.
    10
    11   Q.   Are there any concerns about some forms of E.coli?
    12        A.  Yes, there are pathogenic forms of E.coli of course,
    13        but those are included in the list above enteropathogene
    14        E.coli.  Those are included in that.
    15
    16   Q.   Yes, I see.  The list at the bottom, what are they?
    17        A.  Those are spoilage organisms.
    18
    19   Q.   The right-hand column on that chart, can you say what that
    20        represents?
         A.  That represents the minimal growing temperatures,
    22        proliferation temperatures of those bacteria.
    23
    24   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  You will have to help me when it says "5 bis
    25        13", what does that mean?
    26        A.  5 to 13.
    27
    28   MR. MORRIS:  So -----
    29
    30   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Where we have "3,5", that is the Continental
    31        way of writing 3.5?
    32        A.  That is right, yes.
    33
    34   MR. MORRIS:  Are any all of those present in red meat and, if
    35        so, whereabouts are they present?
    36        A.  Are you referring to the pathogens or ----.
    37
    38   Q.   The pathogens, yes?
    39        A.  Well, all of those pathogens could appear in meat as a
    40        result of contamination apart from, like I said earlier,
         clostridium botulinum and fusarium.
    42
    43   Q.   When you say "could be", what is your working assumption
    44        for when you are looking at -- what I am saying is when you
    45        say "could be", does that mean "hardly ever found" or "not
    46        usually present" or "it is always present but not noticed"?
    47        A.  Obviously the ones that originate from the intestinal
    48        contents, they can easily be found on the carcasses or on
    49        the meat as a result of contamination at the abattoirs.
    50        Like I said earlier, that is the greatest risk during the 
    51        slaughtering process, the contamination of gut contents, 
    52        and that regularly happens. 
    53
    54   Q.   So of the ones on the list, which ones are from the guts or
    55        from faecal contamination?
    56        A.  Entrepathogene E.Coli would belong to that group;
    57        salmonellas would belong to that group, and outside this
    58        list, obviously listeria and campylobacter would belong to
    59        this group.
    60