: : I've come to similar conclusions (although I'd defend American involvement against the North Vietnamese - simply because we were more successful in Korea doesn't make Ree into any more of a Democrat than Diem. : 'Cept most of the time the Yanks were fighting, erm, the South Vietnamese, and 'pacifying' the region- and doing everything possible to avoid a diplomatic sollution.
SDF: This was precisely why the CIA aided Nguyen Van Thieu in his efforts to rig the 1971 election in "South Vietnam," -- the President, the public, and the military itself had declared the war to be unwinnable, yet the war must nevertheless go on.
: :Frequently, U.S. involvements go sour out of ignorance rather than malice; their opponents are much more likely to act from pre-meditated barbarism.
: So, you go to war with a people, but you are moral, they are immoral, they drag you down to their level...hmmmm.
SDF: That's right, "Communist" atrocities in Vietnam were "premeditated barbarism," whereas US atrocities (see Douglas Valentine's The Phoenix Program for instance) are the result of "ignorance," and the coverup continues to this day to make sure we ignore them.
Of course there was Nixon's "madman theory," itself a theory of premeditated barbarism, and the excuse not only for the 1972 Christmas bombings of Hanoi -- it continues to this day in the gratuitous bombing of Yugoslavia this year. What prevents it from being premeditated barbarism is that we are supposed to be ignorant of it, like we were supposed to be ignorant of the US war against El Salvador in the 1980s. See Mark Pedelty's WAR STORIES for more information.
: : What to do? I've virtually given up on Communists - they're worse than Nazis, and much more self-righteous. Most soft socialists I've encountered have a vicious anti-capitalism streak that makes it very difficult to carry on conversations through.
: I should have thought 'anti-capitalist' was a definition of socialism though...
SDF: For libertarians and conservatives in general, "socialism" is a synonym for "politics I don't like." Note the endless attempt in this board by DonS and others to make Hitler into a "socialist".
: : We are essentially a moral and principled country, a model for the world.
: Which includes enacting genocide against the Victims of Saddam Hussien- very fucking moral.
SDF: Thousands of children dying each year of embargo-related causes, to which Madeleine Albright responded, "it's a big price to pay, but it's worth it."
Supporting the Turkish military with weapons sales while they kill off the Kurds in Turkey is a moral action too, just like supporting the Guatemalan death squads (an action for which Clinton recently apologized!) and the Shah of Iran's SAVAK was moral. The US, BTW, is the world's biggest weapons dealer, which is what makes us Americans so outstandingly nice. We believe in "rough justice".
: :If we had more Mandelas instead of Castros, political change would be far simpler.
: Mandella always, and he never renounced it, supported Armed struggle as the means to win, he was more a Gerry Adams than a Castro, but certainly he was no pacifist. Further, the change in south Africa has been slight, the concessions given by the ruling elite have been a means to keep effective economic aprtheid in place, the ANC has backed away from any truly radical programme, poverty is still vicious and endemic.
: : I'll adopt the stance of my government. It has a fairly good track record after all.
: Supporting the Khmer Rouge is a good record?
SDF: Overthrowing democracy in Guatemala (1952), Brazil (1964), Chile (1974), etc. is a good record too. Going into Vietnam, dropping more bombs on it than were dropped in WWII, and then going home amidst declarations of "peace with honor," was the act of a paragon of virtue. Carpet-bombing Cambodia, an act which aided Pol Pot in his genocidal takeover, was a piece of pure charity. Sending old Somocistas into Nicaragua to kidnap civilians in the 1980s (after illegally mining Nicaragua's harbors) merely bolstered this record of US valor.
: :When I take pride in South African affluence, despite apartheid?
: SA is cripplignly poor for most people.
: I put it this way, imagine the policedidn't exist round your way- instead you had one neighburhood organised a vigilante band- now, sometimes they go into some neighbourhoods, do over teh dope dealers, stop the gangs and do good, in other neighbourhoods, they go in, and brutalise the local kids, back cerain gangs to help them keep the peace, anddisplay a double standard. WOuld you support such vigiliantes?
SDF: DrCruel DOES support such vigilantes, like duh. That's what makes him so cruel!
: Further, if as you say, Leftists are acting out of self-interest, is thereno question in your mind that US Gov Ltd is acting likewise?
SDF: You need to translate into the cant of egocentrism. "self-interest" = not MY self-interest.
