- Capitalism and Alternatives -

The Irate Stoller.

Posted by: Red Deathy ( Socialist Party, UK ) on December 23, 1999 at 16:17:05:

: This is where you go wrong. To promise 'voluntary work' or to expect it is utterly utopian. As this debate board AMPLY DEMONSTRATES, some people will 'voluntarily' do ALL the skilled work and 'voluntarily' leave all the shit work for someone else.

No, because if the purchase of labour is banned, and people cannot be *forced* to do such work, then dread necessity, our dearest friend, will rear its ugly head to get the work done; since society *willingly*, and by a majority, decided to enter into socialism, then they will *have* to do that work, in order to keep it going. I would quite willingly do skivvy work, I do allready - teh difference is, I want an end to *compulsion*. I Do not believe people only work under compulsion.

: What I'm concerned with is that NO ONE should porter 'for the day.'

But surely thats what job-rotation would have to be.

: I'm sure you would. And so would Lark, and so would MDG, and so would...

The reason being that I object to such work - what about vegetarians? Further, there would be plenty of people who would not refuse to work an abatoir - why force the minority to do so?

: Arguing against detail divison in the shop to argue FOR the 'productive' social division of labor is opportunism and elitism, RD. I'm ashamed of you.

I'm arguing that we can't end social division of labour - there is a mine near here, Boulby potash. You can only have potash mines where tehre is potash, thus only people living near potash can take a turn in teh potash mine - unless you are suggesting that under socialism you would come over here, and take a turn in the potash mine? Thats social divisiion of labour.

:Under the axiom 'not everyone can be a doctor' falls the understanding that MANY PEOPLE become (only) housewives, janitors, cashiers, etc., etc.

I wasn't saying 'not everyone can be a doctor', I was saying, we need doctors, we must have them, and that requirement takes a lot of time, and effort on the part of the doctor.

:You entertain the notion that someone will be a 'career' porter (like at your college) because portering is a 'multi-facetted and skilled task.' That is reprehensible! Please stop calling yourself a Marxist in public!

Carreer porter? Who said anything about career porter? Whats a career? We abolish that when we end teh wages system.

: Heard that one from the CP before, no thanks. One guy gets $10 an hour to program computers, another guy gets $10 an hour to mop floors? Fuck that, pal.

No, because once we've abolished money, its up to eitehr of them to decide how much they consume. Surely the above is implicit in 'from each acording to their ability,. to each according to their needs', both of which can only reasonably be self-defined. We are about breaking the work/earnings link.

When work is v9oluntary, no one will do a job they don't want to do, nor be forced by poverty to take such a job- necessary work would get done, because it would need to be done,. and there would be non concommitant relative poverty of wages for manual tasks as exists under the wages system...

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