- Capitalism and Alternatives -


Posted by: MDG on January 27, 19100 at 17:57:24:

In Reply to: Yep, you are! posted by Samuel Day Fassbinder on January 27, 19100 at 17:05:14:


: SDF: They voted for Thomas. So much for your theory Democrats being this big bulwark against bad Supreme Court justices.

Moderates and Conservatives voted for Thomas; he almost lost, thanks to liberal Democrats.

: : : : SDF: Go! Go! WTO!

: : : : Go, go, states rights and more executions!

: : : SDF: Uh, executions are already a state matter.

: : Uh, uh,

: SDF: Then why is there no NATIONAL death penalty?

That's not the way it works, SDF, although there are Federal crimes for which the penalty is death, and so in a sense you do have a national death penalty. Back to my main point about the makeup of the Supreme Court: if you were sitting in death row, you wouldn't be bitching about the Democrats' purity, you'd be praying that they win so if and when you file your last appeal on Earth to the Supreme Court, it won't be packed with pro-death judges like Scalia, Thomas, Rehnquist, O'Connor, and Kennedy (the 5 to 4 margin which sends men to the chair).

: : the Supreme Court is the court of last resort for prisoners on death row seeking review of state court judgments, and this Supreme Court, with a 5-4 conservative majority, routinely either refuses to hear death row appeals, or affirms the state court's decision. Case in point: a recent Supreme Court decision which found that although the trial judge did not adequately instruct the jury as to its sentencing options (death penalty versus life in prison), this error was not egregious enough to remand the case back to the state court with new instructions to inform the jury correctly, EVEN THOUGH THE JURORS LATER SAID THAT HAD THEY KNOWN THEIR OPTIONS, THEY WOULD HAVE GIVEN THE DEFENDANT LIFE INSTEAD OF THE DEATH PENALTY. Should Bush pack the court with even more conservative judges, you can kiss of any successful death penalty appeals.

: SDF: No. Gore, Gore-with-a-heart-condition, and Bush have the SAME position on the death penalty and will appoint the SAME judges REGARDLESS of what you think.


:In fact the Democrats will appoint MORE CONSERVATIVE judges because they, unlike the Republicans, have something to prove to their overseers.

Again, that's doubtful, but possible, however, it's far more likely that Bush will appoint Scalia-type justices than Gore or Bradley will, so which way will you bet?

:The only way of opposing the death penalty is if there's a real mass movement against such things, something the Democrats have successfully prevented.

No argument there, but until such time as the death penalty is abolished, we need to help death row prisoners as much as possible, and that means protecting the Supreme Court from a far-right takeover. Also, though I brought up the death penalty as an example, there are numerous other issues which can be made or broken by the ideological character of the Supreme Court.

: : :And the Democrats are not going to oppose states rights or end the death penalty, like duh.

: : Moderate Supreme Court justices will more likely oppose these than conservative judges...duh yourself.

: SDF: Pleas to unhearing elites, is that your form of activism?

Doing what's necessary given today's situation, that's what's critical.
Get your head out of your books and look at the real world, Sam.

: : : Was it a Republican President who signed the "Welfare Bill" into law?

: : No, it was a moderate Republican named Bill Clinton, who I did not vote for.

: SDF: Try to avoid Democrat candidates THIS YEAR too.

I'll see who is offered up on the ballot. Given the choice, I always vote for the non-Democrat/Republican (and I always watch my candidates lose, e.g. Jesse Jackson, Barbara Ehrenreich, Ralph Nader), but this year, Sam, with 5 justices getting ready to retire or die, I will vote for the Democratic Presidential candidate without apology.

: : : : That's what you'll get from the Supreme Court if all you're concerned about is the WTO.

: : : SDF: Liberals will never create a serious movement to promote their lifestyle issues unless they dump the Democratic Party. All the Republicrats are accepting big money and selling votes to the highest bidders, and voting New Coke or Old Coke will not change the flavor of this process.

The Christian Coalition took the Republican party and reshaped it in its own image, so why can't labor and environmentalists do the same to the Democrats. If you want to promote a third party, e.g. the Greens, I'm all for it, but it's far better to start small, with school boards and county government, and work your way up. This worked for the CC.

: : You think I'm pleased with the present Democratic party? Hardly.

: SDF: Then STOP SUCKING UP to it!

I don't suck up to it, but neither will I bury my head in the sand and pretend the real world doesn't exist.

: : I'll tell you this though, Sam -- the further down you get from the Presidency, the better the Democrats are.

: SDF: They're SUCK-UPS to MONEY, pure and simple.

Not so pure and simple. You think my democratic state legislator in Maryland who fought a losing battle for a living wage was a suck up to money? Look at the individuals when you vote - don't generalize, for god's sake.

: : Of course Gore and Bradely and barely Democratic (though still moreso than Bush), but at the Senate level, and especially the Congressional level, you'll get great liberal/left Democrats like Paul Wellstone

: SDF: Who endorsed Bradley...

Wellstone was right to endorse Bradley; maybe in his heart he prefers Ralph Nader or Joel Kovel, but he knows that the only way to prevent a President Shrub from happening is to support a Democrat for President.
I suffered through eight years of Reagan, and Shrub seems like Reagan Part 2 -- I'll be damned if I let that happen by not voting for only candidate who can beat him, be it Gore or Bradley.

: : or Ed Markey. I defy you to show me one Republican moderate, let alone liberal Republican (which can now be found in the same display case as the dodo).

: : : (I'm sure the Green Party will appreciate Stoller's poetry and Krasny's prose)

: : : : : The Democrats are capable of doing all of the things the Republicans want to do, only the Democrats are cleverer at it, because they put all the phony liberals to sleep first. The environmental movement has been asleep since Clinton b

: : : : If Dole was President, the Artic Wildlife Refuge would be filled with oil drillers right now.

: : : SDF: Dole had no chance against Clinton because he could not establish any difference between himself and Clinton that the voters could take seriously. It isn't my fault; I voted for Nader.

: : Yeah, well, I voted for Nader too, but the point remains that if the Republicans had their way, they would be drilling in that Artic Refuge right now, so you ought to be happy that Clinton won at least in that regard.

: SDF: Clinton will reverse his stand when his environmental constituency falls asleep sometime this year. Or Gore will do it for him.

Maybe. Fight as hard as you can to prevent it.

: : : : As for principles, SDF, thank god I'm not as rigid as you.

: : : SDF: "Being good" = "lesser of two evils" = evil? Is that your slippery slope?

: : Reality is tough, isn't it?

: SDF: No, MORAL DUPLICITY is tough.

Life is tough, Sam. Get used to it.

: : : Are you really that thouroughly against the idea of Ralph Nader getting 5% of the vote (= matching Federal funds) this year? Or are you indefinitely for the cause of maintaining the One-Party System with your politics?

: : I might very well vote for Nader, but I'm more inclined to vote for third parties at the lower levels (Senate, Congress, state office), because Bush will be an utter disaster for the Supreme Court, and I am willing to hold my nose and vote for Gore or Bradley to stop that potentially 30 year reign of horror.

: SDF: Why bother, such third party candidates don't run because they don't have the money, thanks to well-meaning folks who just can't let go of their allegiance to the One-Party System.

: The 30-year reign of horror was made possible by the DEMOCRATS, who ditched grassroots organizing for big-money politics. The Christian Coalition is strong because they STILL DO grassroots organizing.

If we get a right-wing majority on the Supreme Court, you can have the Green Party sweep the elections in 2004, and we'll all still be fucked for at least 30 years. Supreme Court justices live a long, long time, for some unknown reason.

: : : You buy corporate, corporations make your world, and you vote corporate. What was it you opposed?

: : I oppose foolish consistency.

: SDF: I see, does that include your consistent support for corporate America, as I just discussed above?

Consistent, Sam? You know that's not true, but if smearing me makes you feel better, go for it.

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