- Capitalism and Alternatives -

You haven't persuaded me of its validity

Posted by: Samuel Day Fassbinder ( Citizens for Mustard Greens, USA ) on June 30, 1999 at 15:55:04:

In Reply to: here is my thesis sir posted by Gee on June 30, 1999 at 13:12:16:

: : SDF: You seem to be conflating motherly love (an instinct) with the desire to compete amongst those indoctrinated by capitalist society (a product of ideology).

: It is simply the matter that if a parent currently has advantages and those advantages would have to be dropped in order to attain more equal opportunities for all they would likely seek to defend their current position. There is no attempt to show it as one ideology or another.

SDF: So? Ideologues don't try to show that their ideology is ideology -- to them, being an ideologue is as natural as the spring rain.

: Put it simply - if one set of parents lived in a rich valley of plenty, and another lived in the desert - would the first group happily share what they have with the second even if it necessitated having less for themselves?

SDF: Assuming artificial scarcity (plus the capitalist desire to accumulate) to be a universal human constant, without evidence. There are plenty of cultures in human society that don't behave this way. "Mi casa es su casa."

: SDF: And this example offers no proof and no suggestion that any discussion of "self-esteem"
: in American classrooms is at fault, or can even be CORRELATED (not to mention the much
: more difficult task of showing a relation of CAUSE)

: I do hope you apply the same scrutiny to your evidences - lets see.

SDF: The fact that you haven't even shown your bogeyman to EXIST in American classroom culture is an insult to the half-of-a-lifetime I've spent within its confines.

: : Have you observed a lesson on self-esteem in an American classroom?

: Youre being obtuse. You know that self esteem isnt a class like math but a pervasive idea. There is a resolution from the National Education Association, to "foster positive self-esteem.".

SDF: Manifesting itself how? You should cite actual practices, as did the researchers in the Phi Delta Kappan.

: : Hard data please, no slippery presuppositions padded with weasel-worded rhetoric.

: I am , oddly, going to have to agree with Marcos in saying that a demand for masses of research is not a counter argument, that demanding to see the details is not an evidence to disprove it. You go on to name another study - where is the hard data in that? Well youve given me the title and could rightly expect me to go look it up rather than expect you to do it for me. Likewise with the above.

SDF: I already explained that my references were based on a comparison between school systems, whereas yours were based on what you yourself explained as a sort of pseudo-psychology. I'm just asking you whether your author attempted any discussion of school systems that would contextualize his (and yours by extension) conclusion about "self-esteem".

: : SDF: Nope, I'm observing that by your definition, the state is creating a "hitler youth" whenever it hires an individual to teach 8-year-olds their multiplication tables, because this counts as "political (accomplished with state aid, and with the political presupposition that 8-year-olds need to multiply) rearing of other people's children."

: Taking the piss doesnt constitute an argument.

SDF: Transposing the terms of your argument (which I did), in the context of my discussion of American public schooling, does count as an argument. What I did was perfectly logical, and what it makes clear is that you're looking too hard for a bogeyman when there isn't one there.

:You are also required to teach history, economics and various other 'social' subjects - the content of which is chosen for you not by an association of parents and teachers but by a mixture of pressure groups

SDF: Composed of parents and teachers.

: which affect through government.

SDF: Elected by parents and teachers.

: Hardly representative. You also seem to think that an elected representative somehow becomes the voice of 'people as a whole' even when elected by a minority

SDF: We have majoritarian elections here in the US.

: and presented as a package deal to 'the people'.

SDF: Which the people are free to accept or reject in part or reject as a whole. There are public hearings on this stuff. Homeschooling laws are quite lenient in the state of California -- lots of people do it.

: : You obviously haven't been a member of any of these human societies. There is such a thing as group loyalty, just not in capitalist businesses.

: No I am an alien. Loyalty - revocable and provisional.

SDF: Tribal membership: permanent.

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