- Capitalism and Alternatives -

Yes it would.

Posted by: Red Deathy ( Socialist Party, UK ) on July 19, 1999 at 19:45:07:

In Reply to: A socialist system without a government would never work posted by DonS on July 19, 1999 at 14:36:22:

: DonS: A socialist system without a government would never work. People will always work for their own interest, not for society. Socialism requires a government that can put a gun to your head and force you to work for *it*.

No, because we can make personal intrest and social interest co-incide, specifically if we abolish money, and institute free accss to teh goods of society, self interest becomes ensuring the prservation of that system. Without money (therefore wages) work will be voluntary and freely chosen. No state is required.

Pace you otehr posts- state intervention doesn't equal socialism, socialism is the moneyless classly system of society, wherein the means of production are held in common,a nd democratically used to supply the needs of society.

: DonS: No modern state is a democracy. In a true democracy, *every* citizen would have to vote on *every* decision. This can't work. Which is the reason we have never seen this system in a nation state.

This is possible, if the basic unit is a small group (a workplace, a community), and wider votes ar rarer, full direct democratic control can be established. The tech is there.

: DonS: The people are *not* the government in *any* modern state. We, the People, are *not* the government. The Founding Fathers of the United States (at least some of them) were smart enough to realize this, and that is why we have a Bill of Rights.

In any current state, indeed, and teh difference is class- one class wields the state, the other cannot, we now have the means to abolish the state, and have dirct democracy- 'from the government of people to the administration of things'.

: DonS: A system where the people *are* the government cannot exist in a nation state (in a village, yes). So your your vision of socialism cannot exist in a nation state or any large entity.

It can exist world-wide (socialism means the end of the nation state), with smaller communities co-operating within a unifying economic system of mutual dependance.

: DonS: In capitalism, the people are the consumers. They control the market by their consumption of products--by their choices. Capitalism is the only system consistant with individual choice and freedom.

Except that people can only control by effective demand, teh rich have more votes- under socialism, the consumers have absolute control, because instead of producing for profits, society produces to meet its own needs. By abolishing the producers, the consumers will reign.

Capitalism contrains people to consume only as much as they ahve money in their pocket- socialism will do away with money, and have free access to the gods of society and free association and labour.

Follow Ups:

The Debating Room Post a Followup