: I dont mind moral discussions, but not sheer emotional whimsy - it says only 'this is my view so there' and nothing more.
Morality without rationality never does make sense.
: : Still it's pretty socialist to do that without reward.
: Youre reward is in your satisfaction. You choose to do it over a number of alternative uses of your time and effort. There is reward.
Ah, the view that there is no such thing as a selfless act, right?
Self-interest in this case would seem to suit the socialist cause.
: : Owing no loyalty to institutions and seeing their purpose as tactical I realise that it is change in peoples Characters that is most important.
: Absolutely. I could criticise the UN and WTO and IMF and all those institutions too, but if enough people give sanction and support to their existance then they exist. What 'the people' want / are satisfied with drives the rest.
I never wanted them and when I discuss the issues, such as the summit of the WTO in the US soon when they will be discussing ways to resind the will of the citizenry in the UK and force the commodification of health care, the abolition of the minimum wage (which is very, very minimum already) and the further commodification of education (freedom of education is being gradually abolished because only the privileged can afford it). Now that's force, not very libertarian and people dont like it but due to the idiot culture of the tabloids who are funded by the same capitalists, it's never featured in the news etc. It's not due to consent but guile and cunning.
: : Well I'll disagree with you both
: Why exactly?
What? I'm not a mere ideologue if that's what this question refers to, I'm more than happy to try and persuade people of the validity, if not preferability, of my position, of political positions at all, but the rich, not just libertarians either, are pushing an uncompromising class war agenda against the poor and myself and I want to see that hindered by reform.
: : I dont like the way some socialist think that if they can erect a super structure, invest it with power, and execute all opposition then thye will live in a Utopia of Freedom, they are a greater enamy to me than people like yourself even.
: I should think so!
Agreement Gee I thought I'd never see the day. I presume that you oppose the steamrollering libertarianism of Thatcher, Pinochet and the WTO or the Secret OCED legislation that would have undermined the soveriegnty of nations (and therefore individuals) too?
: : I'm not sure what exactly your saying.
: That the effort it takes to learn about politics is large, the benefit of one vote (its likelihood at changing anything) is minute - so people dont bother.
Voting etc. is made boring and mundane and remote so as to discourage activity.
:Nor do they mumble about where to put the zebra crossing in local council meetings - it isnt a good use of their time, they think.
Yes I know and who's going to change it? Who would be puting the zebra crossing down in a AC society anyway?
: : If the whole engineering is so incredible, and the incredulity is good it stops paranoia and demands proof, why are there so many Spin Doctors, Corporate PR agencies, Marketing and Advertising agencies? You have to admit that current advertising, for instance, isnt really aimed at resolving the "lack of information" experienced by consumers, its propanganda.
: Have you ever turned it round and thought 'jeez they have to do all that shit just to get someone to *try* a pepsi cola for once?' Makes it look like what it is, an enormous hammer to push the nail in a millemetre more.
No I havent and I dont intend to I cant understand why anyone can empathise with business and big money, cola is cola, the millions of brands is waste.
: : Since when has Logic had anything to do with anything in the real world? The most recent time I almost lost my job, a relation had died and the boss started giving me abuse, now I mean real abuse here not authoritarian orders or anything, because he was hung over and money from the tills from the last shift was unaccounted for I merely spoke back and the Bastard ordered me out the back and squared up to me, like for fighting, but I refused to cower down because the law was on my side (that and he knows if he hit me it'd be the very last thing he'd ever do).
: Youre boss sounds like a piece of shit. You really should look around. There are other low pay jobs with nicer folk if you want the cash.
I know but on principle I dont think I should leave, there are other people working there friends, associates and people I can just about recall the name of and they have zilch knowledge of the law or courage and I feel that if I would expect people with superior knowledge in things to assist me then it is the least I could do.
The problem is such attitudes are rare or put on a pedestle as noble, if this doesnt stop then they will become nonexistant.